John Donvan
Welcome, uh, to Open To Debate. I’m John Donvan, and we are gathered for something remarkable here, a meeting between two men who disagree fiercely across an issue that has fiercely divided so many of us within families and on college campuses. And for that alone, for their courage in coming to the same stage, let us congratulate them at the outset, because we know how rare it is in our currently hyper polarized culture for opposing viewpoints to be heard, spoken, allowed, and in competition with each other under the same roof. But that is the essence of debate, and that is the value that we promote at Open To Debate. And so it is an honor to be here at New York’s venerable Adler Hall, a crown jewel of the New York Society for Ethical Culture, where we cannot and we will not forget how the war in Gaza is steeped in pain and outrage and fear and anger. It’s why this debate matters. And it’s why it is natural to take sides, even necessary to take sides. But listening to the other side, which these debaters will be called to do with one another and which I hope you will do as members of the audience just by being here, that may be a first step, at least in understanding how and why and exactly why we disagree.
The frame, the question we have framed for this purpose and that we will hear debated tonight is this. Were Israel’s actions in the war in Gaza justified? So let’s meet our debaters. I’m gonna come back to the center. And again, as they enter the stage, I appreciate applause for each of them.

Let’s meet our debaters. Answering “yes” to the question, “Were Israel’s actions in the Gaza war justified?”, I wanna welcome Eylon Levy.

Eylon Levy
[inaudible]. Thank you. Thank you.

John Donvan
Eylon, you are the, uh, you can stay with me here. You are the f- you are, you’re the former spokesperson for Israel in the October 7th War, co-founder of the Israeli Citizens Spokespersons’ Office, host of the State of a Nation podcast. Welcome to Open To Debate.

Eylon Levy
Thank you.

John Donvan
And here to argue “no” to the question, “Were Israel’s actions in the Gaza war justified?” I wanna welcome Mehdi Hasan.

[inaudible].

Mehdi Hasan
[inaudible]. Thank you.

John Donvan
Mehdi, you are founder, editor-in-chief and CEO of Zeteo, host of Al Jazeera’s Head to Head, and award-winning journalist. Welcome to Open To Debate.

Mehdi Hasan
Thank you for having me.

John Donvan
And, gentlemen, thanks, each of you, for being here tonight. Let’s start it with a handshake and then we can begin the debate.

Eylon Levy
Thank you.

Mehdi Hasan
Glad to take this offline.

Eylon Levy
Thank you.

John Donvan
So let’s get to our opening statements. We want each of you to take a few minutes to explain why you’re answering yes or no to our question, “Were Israel’s actions in the Gaza war justified?” And when I say “were,” I just wanna be clear, we chose that word to talk about…

… I say were, I just want to be clear we chose that word to talk about, um, Israel’s immediate actions after what happened on October 7th up through today. It’s, It’s everything. It’s not this moment, it’s not that moment, it’s the course of things. Um, Eylon, you are up first. Your answer to the question is “Yes.” The floor is yours, please tell us why.

Eylon Levy
On October 7th, Hamas perpetrated an act of genocide against the people of Israel. Its death squads invaded with a clear mission, to massacre as many as people as they could as sadistically as they could, and to take survivors as hostages. Hamas had a strategy to lure Israel into an urban war and generate enough suffering that the world would pressure Israel to leave Hamas alone to do it again and again. Hamas slaughtered 1,200 people on that day, at a music festival and in their beds. They cremated little children alive. They perpetrated barbaric acts of sexual violence. They beheaded, tortured, and mutilated their victims, alive and dead, and they did it with glee. And then they took over 250 hostages, including little children, paraded them through the streets of Gaza to jeering crowds, hid them in tunnels and homes where they are being starved, and tortured, and raped, and executed. It was the deadliest terror attack in world history after 9/11, the bloodiest massacre of Jews since the holocaust, and the opening shot of the Iranian regime’s regional war against Israel on seven fronts.

At this point, Israel faced a choice, as Hamas immediately threatened to do it again and again until Israel was destroyed. To do nothing or to do something. Both would have consequences. Doing nothing meant letting Hamas get away with October 7th, leave it free to do it again and again, only this time with thousands of dangerous terrorists released from jail, and with its popularity sky-rocketing. That’s not an option. Doing something meant targeting Hamas’s terrorists in accordance with international law, in order to dismantle their ability wage war and live out that threat to do it again and again. That was the choice that Israel faced after October 7th. Now after October 7th, that campaign to bring Hamas down and bring the hostages home was the only moral response. Hamas exists for the sake of war, and for the sake of peace, it must go.

Let me explain Israel’s strategy. Israel’s strategy is to get civilians out of harm’s way so that it can target Hamas’s terrorist infrastructure under their feet. Hamas’s strategy is to keep civilians in harm’s way so that it can use them to shield their military infrastructure. Israel left Gaza in 2005, and never wanted to go back. But Hamas seized power two years later, started firing rockets at our cities, and rigged Gaza’s urban landscape for war. They dug a network of military tunnels one and a half times longer than New York Subway under homes, and schools, and hospitals. They booby-trapped tens of thousands of buildings. They started firing rockets at our homes and our towns from inside their schools and their hospitals. In response, Israel’s actions are to target Hamas’s terrorists, and to take unprecedented efforts to keep their civilians safe from their own leaders’ sick strategy to sacrifice them on the alter of jihad. That’s why it keeps repeatedly urging them to get out of harm’s way from Hamas strongholds and flooding the area with over a million tons of aid, because it keeps saying, “This is a war against Hamas, not the people of Gaza.”

Now, the suffering of my neighbors in Gaza is horrific. I blame their psychopath leaders for launching this war, fighting it inside civilian areas, and refusing to release the hostages and surrender. Now, tonight’s debate is about whether Israel’s actions in the war in Gaza are justified in a context in which I hope we can all agree none of the enemies actions are justified. Because we are fighting a jihadist army that has as much respect for humanity and law as Mehdi Hasan has for the truth. Mehdi may say-

Audience
Whoo.

Eylon Levy
… “I condemn Hamas’s acts on October 7th,” but he will not condemn its strategy because he is part of its strategy. Hamas is counting its defense attorney to shield it from the consequences of the war that it started and deflect blame onto Israel so it can do October 7th again, maybe because they share a goal that Israel shouldn’t exist. Mehdi Hasan will say tonight that October 7th does not justify Israel’s actions in this horrible war. My question then is this, what does October 7th justify?

John Donvan
Eylon, I’m sorry, your, your, your time is up.

Eylon Levy
What does October 7th-

John Donvan
I’m sorry, your time is up. Thank you.
Mehdi.
Eylon, Eylon, in, in already calling your opponent a liar, you have already crossed one of the lines of the culture that we try to establish here. I wish you hadn’t.

Mehdi Hasan
You know, I don’t mind. It’s fine. It’s fine. It’s fine. [inaudible

]

John Donvan
You, you don’t, you don’t need to do that to make your case. Please.

Audience
[inaudible] Whoo.

John Donvan
Mehdi Hasan, you are answering, uh, “No” in answer to, in, uh, answer to the question, is is- were Israel’s actions in the Gaza war justified?

Mehdi Hasan
All right, so ladies, and gentlemen, the question, were they justified? Were the actions justified?

John Donvan
And it would be great if you didn’t feel the need to respond to the personal attack. It’ll waste time.

Mehdi Hasan
I, I, I’ll… We’ll decide when we get there, Jon.

Audience
(laughs)

Mehdi Hasan
The, were they justified? Um, no. Obviously not. Of course not. October the 7th, I think we can all agree, was a crime, a war crime, right? We can all agree on that. And taking hostages is a war crime.

Audience
Whoo.

Mehdi Hasan
And those hostages should be released. But to destroy an entire place, an entire people in response is never justified. Never justified.

Audience
Whoo.

Mehdi Hasan
How are we still deba… I don’t understand how we’re debating this more than 40,000 deaths later. I don’t understand how we’re still debating this sitting in the comfort of New York, 7,000 miles away from a place that the UN Secretary General has called hell on earth. Justified? Justified? Was Israel justified in carrying out one of the most intense civilian punishment campaigns in history according to Dr. Robert Pape at the University of Chicago, dropping 500-pound bombs, 1,000-pound bombs, 2,000-pound bombs, on schools, hospitals, uh, uh, universities, bookstores, libraries, mosques, churches, refugee camps, apartment buildings, cemeteries? Cemeteries. Destroying a higher percentage of buildings in northern Gaza than the allies destroyed in Dresden World War Two, reducing Gaza to 42 million tons of rubble while they got people out of the way, how is that justified? Dropping a bomb, for example, on a six-story apartment building in central Gaza last October, killing more than 100 people inside, including more than 50 children, with no Hamas target in sight according to Human Rights Watch, with no explanation offered by the Israeli military even till today, was that justified, Eylon? Was Israel justified in telling people to go to safe zones, and then bombing them and killing them in those safe zones?

According to NBC, there were seven-

Audience
Whoo.

Mehdi Hasan
… deadly air strikes between January and April in areas that the Israeli military had specifically designated as safe zones, killing Palestinian civilians like Sabreen Sakani, who was 30 weeks pregnant at the time. She was killed in a safe zone in April, her little baby, newborn baby died less than a week later. Was that justified too, Eylon? Was Israel justified in killing a record number of kids in Gaza, 16,000 children, turning Gaza into what the UN has called a graveyard for children? According to Save the Children, killing more kids in the first three than were killed globally in each of the past four years. Killing little kids like six-year-old Hind Rajab, and her 15-year-old sister, Layan, firing 335 bullets into the car they were in. 335 bullets. And then killing the two paramedic who went to try and rescue them. Was that justified too, Eylon? Was Israel justified in killing a record number of aid workers in Gaza, right? A record number.

Audience
Whoo.

Whoo.

Mehdi Hasan
Targeting-

Audience
Whoo.

Mehdi Hasan
Targeting again and again-

Audience
Whoo.

Mehdi Hasan
… systematically, car by car, according to Chef Jose Andres, a specifically explicitly marked World Central Kitchen aid convoy, killing seven aid workers in the process. Was that justified? Was Israel justified in starving the people of Gaza, using food and water as a weapon war, to quote both the EU and Oxfam? Was Israel justified in blocking aid trucks from going into Gaza, simply because they carry things like crutches, nail clippers, and even chocolate croissants, according to the Washington Post? Was Israel justified in raping, sodomizing Palestinian detainees who are charged with no crimes whatsoever?

Audience
Whoo. Whoo.

Mehdi Hasan
Putting hot rods up their rectums, putting hot rods up their rectums, amputating their limbs, according to CNN and the New York Times. Was that rape and torture justified, Eylon? Was…

I mean, the, the, Israel, according to the ICC chief prosecutor, who put out a statement calling for the arrest of Eylon’s former boss, Benjamin Netanyahu, said that Israel may have mili- military goals, legitimate goals, but the way they’re carried out, killing innocent people, starving people, is criminal, he said. Criminal, think about that. Eylon Levy is a former spokesperson for a man who the ICC chief prosecutor wants arrested for war crimes. Eylon himself has produced a number of lies, sorry, Jon, in service of those war crimes. He has a bunch of tweets still up tonight which say that babies were beheaded on October 7th, babies were baked in ovens, uh, babies were ripped from their mother’s wombs. October 7th was bad enough, but Eylon had to exaggerate it for atrocity purposes. Those tweets are still up. Why would you trust anything this man says to you tonight?

Look, he’s here-

Audience
Whoo.

Mehdi Hasan
He’s here, he’s here to gaslight you, to defend the indefensible, to excuse the inexcusable, to justify the unjustifiable, but you don’t need to. Tonight, you can choose to be on the side, not of cruelty, not of criminality, but on the side of the innocent people of Gaza who are being killed as we speak tonight, as we speak, by Eylon’s former colleagues in the the Israeli military, on the orders of Eylon’s former bosses in the Israeli government. So yes, I choose to oppose this horrific and homicidal motion. Thank you.

Audience
Whoo.

Whoo.

John Donvan
So we’re, we’re gonna just, we’re gonna have a, a discussion with a little, that’s a little but looser in format, but the first thing I wanna say to each of you is y- you know, this mutual urination context is not, is not helping us understand the principles involved, all right? You think he tells myth- untruths, you think he tells untruths. You don’t need to keep hitting that point, I hope, to make your argument. And again, it doesn’t, it’s not what we’re about.

Eylon, I th- I, uh, I heard you in your, in your opening statement say that the only moral response was for Israel to try to take Hamas down, and to get the hostages home. I heard your opponent say, uh, that, uh, the, the, the, the manner in which it’s happening is just enormous overreach with enormous consequences for enormous number of people that, uh, he, he would certainly say, and I think a number of others would agree, are innocent people, not all of them, but some of them, and that that represents an unjustifiable response. What we’re talking about, it seems like, is proportionality. And I want, I want you to address the issue of proportionality. Um, this has been calculated in a number of ways. People have said that, uh, as you said, it was the worst terrorist attack since 2000, uh, sim- September 11th, 2001, uh, but others would say that the, the number of people killed on both sides is, is wildly out of balance and therefore disproportionate. There’s a, there’s an issue to be discussed here. There’s a principle to be discussed here, and that’s proportionality. And what, in your view, justifies the proportionality that Israel has stepped up to in its response? And I, again, because I want things to move back and forth, I’ll probably jump in on you after about 90 seconds, just so you have a sense.

Eylon Levy
Israel’s response is proportionate to the threat that we face, which is the threat of annihilation. After perpetrating the savage atrocities of October 7th, the first thing Hamas did was deny that it did them. The second thing that it did was to threaten to do it again and again until Israel is destroyed. That is what is at stake if this war ends with Hamas free, emboldened, and empowered to perpetrate more October 7th massacres thinking that the world will keep saving it from the wars that it started. Now, proportionality is a term in international law. It doesn’t mean that if thy kill 1,000 people, you kill 1,000 people and call it quits. It means that for each strike, the anticipated collateral damage, the damage to civilians, cannot be excessive to the anticipated military goal. And in order-

John Donvan
And, and, and your argument is that that has been the principle Israel has observed?

Eylon Levy
Every military expert-

Mehdi Hasan
No, no.

Eylon Levy
… who has observed Israel’s-

Mehdi Hasan
No.

Eylon Levy
… military efforts, including just recently in The Times, the Deputy Supreme Commander of NATO, has said that Israel is fighting in the most complicated urban battlefield that the world has ever seen, and he’s satisfied that its rules of engagement and standard procedures are at least as rigorous as the UK and other Western allies. That’s the former Deputy Supreme Commander of NATO.

John Donvan
Mehdi.

Mehdi Hasan
So I actually-

Audience
Whoo.

Mehdi Hasan
I actually, I actually wanna agree. I wanna agree with something Eylon said. Proportionality is a difficult subject, and we shouldn’t talk about this in abstract, X number here, Y number there.

John Donvan
Mm-hmm.

Mehdi Hasan
Let’s talk specifics. The problem with a lot of spokesperson of Israel is they wanna talk in abstract. I wanna talk in specifics. So if we talk about proportionality, we talk about discrimination, we talk about war crimes. Uh, last October, shortly after October 7th, Israeli forces struck a three-story residential building in Gaza City. They killed 15 members of the al-Dos family, seven children. According to Amnesty International, the survivors say no warnings. Eylon told us there were warnings, no warnings were given to evacuate. Amnesty found no evidence of any military targets in the area, and Israel to this day has offered no explanation for that strike. So for the dead al-Dos family members, Eylon, can you tell us why they were killed?

Eylon Levy
Mr. Hasan, the IDF does not owe you immediate answers. And the fact that Amnesty speaks, the fact that Amnesty speaks-

Mehdi Hasan
[inaudible

] can’t answer a simple question.

Eylon Levy
… to local witnesses intimidated by Hamas does not mean that there was not a military target.

Mehdi Hasan
But was there?

Eylon Levy
You take the fact-

Mehdi Hasan
But was there? Because Israel has never said there was a military target.

Eylon Levy
Mr. Hasan, Hamas booby-trapped 40% of Gaza’s buildings. It dug tunnels underneath homes, and schools, and hospitals.

Mehdi Hasan
We’re back to generalities, Eylon.

Eylon Levy
No, not generalities.

Mehdi Hasan
Why did you kill 15 members of the al-Dos family?

Eylon Levy
Mr. Hasan, I do not know-

John Donvan
Let him, let him speak, please.

Eylon Levy
… and I do not need to explain every single strike-

Mehdi Hasan
You do. You literally do. That’s what you’re here to, here to explain-

John Donvan
Mehdi, Mehdi, Mehdi, hold it.

Eylon Levy
No, Mr. Hasan. No, Mr. Hasan. Because in this war, Israel is seeking to neutralize the threat of a terrorist army-

Mehdi Hasan
Abstraction.

Eylon Levy
… that has a deliberate-

Mehdi Hasan
Specifics, please.

Eylon Levy
… strategy of sacrificing-

John Donvan
I’m gonna have to get the mic-cut switch please.

Eylon Levy
… innocent civilians.

John Donvan
Thank you. Sorry. Go ahead.

Eylon Levy
Isra- Hamas has a deliberate strategy of sacrificing its innocent civilians, and this is a strategy that you are enabling by always deflecting blame onto Israel, instead of considering the real question of why Hamas built its military assets into civilian areas. Under international law, Israel is obligated to give precaution where those feasible precautions are possible.

John Donvan
Okay, let, let-

Mehdi Hasan
To be-

Eylon Levy
And it has done that by-

John Donvan
Let, let Mehdi come in, please.

Eylon Levy
… repeatedly urging-

Mehdi Hasan
To be… I need to say two things. To be, to be clear-

Audience
Whoo.

Mehdi Hasan
To be clear, 15 people were killed, seven children. You were spokesperson for the Israeli government at the time, Israel has never given an explanation. When you say, “I do not need to explain myself,” you literally do. You were the spokesperson for the government that committed a war crime, and you came to a debate tonight to defend war crimes, so you literally do. Number two-

Audience
Whoo.

Mehdi Hasan
Number two, you’ll notice, Jon, how Eylon quickly went to abstract generalities. Let’s talk specifics. Let’s talk about tunnels. I think it’s abhorrent to hide tunnels under civilian targets, I wish they didn’t do that. But when Israel shoots children in the head… Three American doctors went to Gaza, Dr. Faya Sidhwa, Dr. Irfan Galaria, and a Jewish American doctor called Dr. Mark Perlmutter. All of them came back at separate times, said, “Children were brought into hospitals we were in with gunshot to the head, sniper shots.” Perfect. Exact targets. There is no tunnel that justifies shooting toddlers in the head, Israeli snipers-

Audience
Whoo.

Mehdi Hasan
… shooting toddlers.

John Donvan
Okay.

Mehdi Hasan
Yeah, you can tell us why. You can defend that.
John Donvan (

):
Mehdi, um, Mehdi, for- forgive me for, for going abstract, but I-

Mehdi Hasan
Please.

John Donvan
… I do wanna go to some principles here. So you are listing a, a number of specific-

Mehdi Hasan
Yes.

John Donvan
… uh, incidents that you feel cumulatively add up to very, very much an overreaction.

Mehdi Hasan
War crimes, Jon. Not an overreaction. War crimes.

John Donvan
All right, you call them war crimes. In, um… Uh, not, not so much in the abstract, but what, what would’ve been an appropriate response to what happened that would not cross the line to proportionality?

Mehdi Hasan
It’s a good question. It’s a great question. So I’m gonna a… I’ll answer that in two ways. One is, I’m not someone who has ever… And you can look at my record on this, whether it’s the UK, the US, both of my countries, I’m American British, I’ve criticized targeted assassinations even by the US and the UK. I’m the loser, and people in New York, this is gonna be an unpopular statement, who says that people like Bin Laden should be tried, not assassinated. That’s who I’m a b- a bl- s- stinking liberal. But, but given we live in a world where America, Britain, Israel, men- multiple countries, India is now accused of targeted its enemies, killing [inaudible

], you could’ve tried to take out the leaders of the group without wiping out the entire place. I find it interesting that Israel… Hold, hold on.

Audience
Whoo.

Mehdi Hasan
I find it interesting that Israel was able to pinpoint kill Ismail Haniyeh in a house in a foreign country-

Audience
Whoo.

Mehdi Hasan
…. but when it comes to Gaza, when it comes to the Gaza Strip, they had to wipe out the whole place, they had to reduce it to 42 million tons of rubble.

John Donvan
Okay, you-

Mehdi Hasan
And one final point.

John Donvan
Yeah.

Mehdi Hasan
I’ve just got one factual point. Eylon, they’re not your neighbors, they’re people you occupy, just to be clear.

Audience
Whoo.

John Donvan
So, I’m, I’m hoping you’ll let point number two slide, and please take on point number one. Mu- Mehdi’s saying that there would’ve been a self-defense response that he feels might have been more appropriate that he also feels would’ve been within the capability of the Israeli military. What’s your response to that?

Eylon Levy
Notice the general pattern of argumentation we’re seeing here. “Gosh, October 7th was terrible. Hamas shouldn’t have done that. Gosh, Hamas built tunnels under schools and hospitals, it shouldn’t have done that.” The question is what Israel may legitimately do once Hamas did that.

John Donvan
No, no, no, no. That’s not the question I asked you.

Audience
(laughs)

Eylon Levy
No. But I’m, I, but I’m explaining.

Mehdi Hasan
It’s what you did. It’s what you did, Eylon.

Eylon Levy
And his response-

Mehdi Hasan
It’s what you did.

Eylon Levy
And Mr. Hasan’s response is, “Well, if Israel could take out a terrorist leader thousands of miles away who wasn’t expecting that he could be targeted, surely it can reach the terrorists who are hiding inside a bunker, under a hospital, probably surrounded by hostages as human shields.” Hamas rigged the battlefield.

Audience
Whoo. Whoo.

Eylon Levy
Hamas rigged the battlefield to shield its military assets under civilians, and it left Israel with no option of getting to those leaders-

John Donvan
Okay, no option. No other option.

Eylon Levy
… other than going through the civilians.

John Donvan
No option is what your opponent is saying.

Eylon Levy
Which is why they repeatedly asked them to evac-

Mehdi Hasan
So first of all, so first of all, as we’ve discussed, and I, I’m here all night, Eylon can take his time, they killed 15 members of the Dos family, seven children, who-

Eylon Levy
We can continue this at the reception afterwards, if you want.

Mehdi Hasan
And wa- I’ll, I’ll happily, and ask you why did government that you served in kill 15 innocent people in an apartment building?

John Donvan
Okay. The, the-

Mehdi Hasan
Hold on, this is very important because-

John Donvan
But, but there’s, but there were two, it-

Mehdi Hasan
… there’s no evidence Hamas was there.

John Donvan
A- all right.

Mehdi Hasan
He’s not even tried to make that claim.

John Donvan
Mehdi, just in the interest of time, you’ve asked it, it’s a rhe- it’s become a rhetorical question.

Mehdi Hasan
Well, it’s, but it’s crucial to the argument, ’cause Eylon wants to go to-

John Donvan
He’s saying, he’s saying there was no-

Mehdi Hasan
…. abstract trunnels-

John Donvan
He, when he says there was-

Mehdi Hasan
[inaudible]

John Donvan
When he says there was no other option-

Mehdi Hasan
Yeah.

John Donvan
… what is your response to that?

Mehdi Hasan
Well, no one in the world agrees with that. That’s why Israel’s become a pariah in the world, because-

Audience
Whoo. Whoo.

Mehdi Hasan
… even, even, even-

Eylon Levy
What was the option, Mr. Hasan?

Mehdi Hasan
Hold on. Even, even j- even Joe Biden-

Eylon Levy
What would you have had us do?

Mehdi Hasan
Even Joe Biden, the most pro-

Eylon Levy
What does October 7th justify?

Mehdi Hasan
Even Joe Biden… I already answered that question. Even Joe Biden, the most pro-Israel president of my lifetime, who has backed Israel with wop- weapons and arms, has gone on the record saying, “Too much indiscriminate bombing. You’ve killed too many innocent people.” Even the people on your own side say your killing too many people, Eylon. But you will not accept that.

Eylon Levy
Mr. Hasan, Mr. Hasan, too many people have been killed. The number of people who should have been killed is zero. Too many people were killed-

Audience
Whoo.

Mehdi Hasan
So stop killing them.

Eylon Levy
… when Hamas’s psychopath leaders, when Hamas’s psychopath leaders-

Mehdi Hasan
Stop killing them.

Eylon Levy
… who are funded by your paymasters in Qatar-

Mehdi Hasan
Stop killing them.

Eylon Levy
… maybe you share a slice-

John Donvan
Let’s, all right, all right, let’s, let’s-

Eylon Levy
… declared [inaudible]-

John Donvan
Let’s [inaudible

] with that.

Mehdi Hasan
I’m gonna respond to that.

John Donvan
Eylo-

Mehdi Hasan
I’m gonna respond to that.

John Donvan
No, no, no, no, no.

Mehdi Hasan
[inaudible]

John Donvan
It’s ano- it’s another cheap shot-

Mehdi Hasan
And I’m gonna respond to it.

John Donvan
… and I don’t want to entertain cheap shots.

Mehdi Hasan
I’m gonna respond to it.

John Donvan
I wanna go to you, Eylo- Eylon, with this question. When you say that the war is justified, killing in war can only be justified if it serves a greater good. What’s the greater good that’s being served at this moment in Gaza?

Eylon Levy
Mr. Jonathon this war is not justified, because Hamas should not have started this war in the first place.

John Donvan
Well, the question is whether-

Audience
Whoo.

Eylon Levy
The question y-

Eylon Levy
Started this war in the first place.

John Donvan
Well, the question is what … The question you are, you are arguing-
Eylon Levy (

):
Israel responds.

John Donvan
You are answering the question, yes, Israel’s actions are justified.

Eylon Levy
The response is an attempt to prevent the next October 7th massacre.

John Donvan
Well-

Eylon Levy
On October 7th, Hamas showed us what it was capable of doing, and they immediately went on TV and said, “October 7th, October 10th, October one millionth. Everything we do is justified. We are a nation of martyrs, they said, we’re proud to sacrifice millions of martyrs-”

John Donvan
Okay.

Eylon Levy
… If that’s what it takes, and we are trying to stop October 7th, and to do so in a way-

John Donvan
Okay. All right.

Eylon Levy
… That minimizes the cost of their civilians.

John Donvan
So-

Mehdi Hasan
Let me just deal with the last point and the previous point, which is the idea … Let’s just, let’s just be real here. And a lot of military experts say this, but you don’t even need military experience, you just need common sense, the idea that you prevent another October the 7th, or that you destroy Hamas by making tens of thousands of Palestinian children orphans is insane. It doesn’t protect Israel. Forget Gaza, it doesn’t protect Israel.

And let me just deal with this classic, my pay master’s in Qatar. Yes, I host a show of Algiers or English, let’s just be very clear. In December, the New York Times published a very, very long piece.

John Donvan
Oh, come on. Nobody ca-

Mehdi Hasan
Very important here, very important here.

John Donvan
Nobody cares.

Mehdi Hasan
Relevant to the debate. The New York Times-

John Donvan
All right, make it relevant. Please make it relevant.

Mehdi Hasan
New York Times published a very long piece which said, a month before October the 7th, the head of the Masa, David Bonya, went to [inaudible

] and the Qatari said, “Do you want us to keep sending money to Gaza?” And he went back to [inaudible

], he said, “What should I say?” He said, “Yes, please.” And he went back and he said, “Yes, please send the money to Gaza.”

Eylon went to work for the government of Benjamin Netanyahu a month after that, which he’s never apologized for that to the Israeli people. Benjamin Netanyahu’s never apologized to that to the Israeli people. So if anyone should answer questions about Qatari funding of Hamas allegedly, reportedly, whatever you want to call it, it’s the Israeli government that facilitated it for many, many years.

Eylon Levy
I’ll answer.

Mehdi Hasan
Eylon’s in that government. He’s the spokesperson for that government.

Eylon Levy
I will answer. It was a terrible mistake to allow Qatari money into Gaza.

Mehdi Hasan
Oh, a mistake. A mistake.

Eylon Levy
On a mistaken belief that if we improve civilian life in Gaza, create jobs, create opportunity, Hamas’s psychopath leaders won’t launch this war. They went straight on TV and said, “We tricked the Israelis. We made them think that we were concerned about the civilians in Gaza. All the while we were taking that money to build the tunnels and the weapons, and the rockets we are firing at Israel.”

)
John Donvan
All right.

Eylon Levy
If we had known, Mr. Hasan, what Hamas was going to do on October 7th, perhaps we should have started a preemptive war to eliminate that threat before they could’ve burned the [inaudible

] of children alive on October 7th, but we didn’t.

John Donvan
Okay.

Eylon Levy
Hamas tricked us.

John Donvan
All right, timeout. Time out.

Eylon Levy
And we won’t repeat the same mistake again.

John Donvan
Time out. Going to take a little bit of a 10-second breath, and slightly lower the temperature, but only slightly. Eylon, you were making the argument that Israel’s actions are justified in the pursuit of the destruction of Hamas. We’ve come to the point, though, where even Israeli military officials are saying it can’t be destroyed. Therefore, what, what, if … What happens to the argument that the justification is the destruction of Hamas if it’s an organization, a movement that can’t be destroyed?

Eylon Levy
Of course Hamas can be removed from power, just like ISIS was removed from power. ISIS is now a terrorist organization that is trying to blow up concerts in Austria, it no longer controls territory. The size of Austria, following this war, we cannot allow the Hama terrorist regime, it’s not an organization, it’s a terror regime and a terror army, to regroup, restock, rearm, and keep shooting rockets at our towns while it is still holding civilians. It is a regime that must be removed from power because we know exactly what it wants to do if given half a chance, and that is to do October 7th again and again.

And Israel’s war, Mr. Hasan, I’ll yield the stage to you and ask you, eliminating the Hamas terror regime, removing it from power, a legitimate military objective, yes or no?

Mehdi Hasan
Of course it’s a legitimate military objective for Israel. Uh. And that’s what I quoted the ICC [inaudible

] saying, but you’re a doing a very bad job of it. What’s interesting-

Eylon Levy
Well, I understand it, after October 7th-

Mehdi Hasan
What’s interesting what John said-

Eylon Levy
Do I understand it, because I want to clarify and understand we’re on the same page-

Mehdi Hasan
You want to clarify the [inaudible

] kill 15 civilians?

Eylon Levy
No, I want to understand that we are on the same page. Do you agree that after October 7th-

Mehdi Hasan
I’ll answer your question when you answer mine.

Eylon Levy
… It was legitimate for Israel to remove the Hamas terror regime in order to prevent another October 7th? It’s a yes or no question, Mr. Hasan.

Mehdi Hasan
No, it’s not. It’s a loaded question. I’m going to say it was legitimate for Israel to defend its citizens inside of Israel. It’s not legitimate to occupy Palestinian territory-

Eylon Levy
Well, is it legitimate, decades-

Mehdi Hasan
[inaudible]

Eylon Levy
Decades on end?

Mehdi Hasan
And let me answer …

Eylon Levy
Can I answer-

Mehdi Hasan
If I can remember what you came to me for.

John Donvan
If I can rebut.

Mehdi Hasan
Let me, let me answer John’s question.

John Donvan
May I?

Eylon Levy
Yeah.

Mehdi Hasan
Let me answer-

John Donvan
Yeah. Eylon, you’ve had about two or three minutes in a row. Go ahead, please.

Mehdi Hasan
[inaudible]. John, you asked, you asked a very interesting question of Eylon. You pointed out that he keeps saying, notice the slight of hand, you said that he said, and he said it many times, not just here, Hamas should be destroyed. When you asked him, Israeli military experts in general say it can’t be destroyed, notice what Eylon said? He said, “Remove from power.” Quickly moved the goal post there, because he knows that Hamas can’t be destroyed by these means. In fact, the former head of Israeli-

Eylon Levy
Israel said from the very beginning-

Mehdi Hasan
Let me finish my point. The former head of Israel’s military, he was a member of Netanyahu’s war cabin, he said earlier this year, quote, “Anyone who says you can destroy Hamas is telling tall tales.” So it’s not me calling Eylon Levy a liar, it’s the former head of the Israeli military.

Eylon Levy
Mr. Hasan, from the beginning, from the beginning, Israel has said that its goals are to remove Hamas from power and dismantle its ability to wage war again, and to live up its threat of repeat October 7ths, and that’s is why I ask you, after October 7th, was it legitimate for Israel to remove Hamas from power in order to eliminate the threat of repeat October 7ths, yes or no?

Mehdi Hasan
Very simple answer. Israel has the right to defend its citizens in its territory. It doesn’t have a right to be an occupier, doesn’t have a right to … let me finish the point, because you think they’re you’re neighbors, the International Court of Justice says Gaza and the West Bank are occupied, they’ve been occupied every day since 1967. You did not withdraw in 2005, you blockaded, and deceived, and [inaudible

]

Eylon Levy
I’d like to explain. I’d like to explain what the purpose here is-

Mehdi Hasan
So where you’re going … and I’ve already, I’ve already-

Eylon Levy
Of illegal fiction.

Mehdi Hasan
And I’ve already answered the question, Eylon. I’ve made the point that even if I was an Israeli general trying to destroy Hamas, killing thousands of innocent people only helps Hamas. Every terrorism expert in the world says you’re a recruiting sergeant for extremist groups when you go and kill innocent civilians.

Eylon Levy
Mr. Hasan, whether this war-

Mehdi Hasan
Why can’t you understand that?

Eylon Levy
Whether this war-

Mehdi Hasan
Why didn’t you understand that?

John Donvan
Time out. Time out.

Eylon Levy
[inaudible]

John Donvan
Time out. Time out.

Eylon Levy
[inaudible]

John Donvan
Ti- Time out. Time out. Eylon.

Eylon Levy
[inaudible]

John Donvan
Eylon, time out. I have a question for whoever wants to jump on it. Is Israel’s war in Gaza making Israel more secure?

Eylon Levy
When this war began, Hamas had a fearsome missile arsenal that rained thousands of missiles on our cities. I had to keep running into a rocket shelter. Israel has now eliminated, Israel has now eliminated the threat of rocket fire from Gaza. It has cut off its smuggling routes, it has destroyed its missile silos-

Mehdi Hasan
So-

Eylon Levy
And it has destroyed Hamas’s weapons capabilities. That alone has made us safer and makes it easier to sleep in our beds at night.

Mehdi Hasan
So a couple of … So three quick things. Number one, the Israelis went to Supreme Court recently and they were having an argument in Israel’s Supreme Court, and they put in the official filing that we do not control Gaza, even after all this time, Hamas is still in control of hot spots in Gaza. So they say the honest stuff when, when you’re not looking.

Eylon Levy
It’s true.

Mehdi Hasan
Number two. Number two-

Eylon Levy
It’s true though.

Mehdi Hasan
I interviewed Ami Ayalon recently, former head of Shinbat, former Israeli admiral. He said very explicitly Israel will not be safe until we give Palestinians freedom. These are his words, not my words. And number three, and number three, number three, I’m glad you had a bomb shelter to protect you, because the Aldos family in Gaza did not have a bomb shelter. [inaudible

].

John Donvan
Okay. Another question we have not … we have not yet talked about the hostages, and we should. Is Israel’s action in Gaza going to, to … is it for the benefit of the hostages?

Eylon Levy
Absolutely.

Mehdi Hasan
Well-

Eylon Levy
Israel is fighting to bring the hostages home while Hamas is starving and torturing and raping them. We managed in November, because Hamas was being clobbered, and it wanted a breather. They released nearly half of the hostages. We’ve sent in special forces to rescue hostages in raids my opponent has condemned. Israel is fighting to put the military pressure on Hamas to release the hostages, but Hamas doesn’t want to release the hostages. And the reason it doesn’t want to release the hostages is that it knows that the longer this war goes on, and the more suffering it generates among its own people in Gaza, the more it advances its own goal of isolating Israel.

And Mr. Hasan, it, it, it, it pains me that you do not seem to realize the role that you play within Hamas’s strategy when you deflect blame onto Israel. Never demand any accountability, never demand any accountability from the Hamas regime-

Mehdi Hasan
So-

Eylon Levy
When you know-

Mehdi Hasan
So, all right, can I answer?

Eylon Levy
… that Hamas’s goal is to maximize suffering. You give it a reason to drag on this war. If you wanted to let the hostages go-

Mehdi Hasan
That’s a load-

Eylon Levy
… You should tell Qatar-

Mehdi Hasan
Of all, of all the nonsense you’ve said tonight-

Eylon Levy
… to pressure Hamas to free the hostages.

Mehdi Hasan
Of all the demonstrably untrue things you’ve said tonight, this is the big one. So, so apparently, if you want a deal to end the war, you’re enabling Hamas’s strategy?

Eylon Levy
No.

Mehdi Hasan
That’s what you just said, I’m enabling Hamas’s strategy.

Eylon Levy
No I did not.

Mehdi Hasan
So-

Eylon Levy
But you have systematically undermined every leverage Israel has to free the hostages.

Mehdi Hasan
You know who’s, you know who’s, you know who’s undermining?

Eylon Levy
And stop pretending to care about the hostages.

Mehdi Hasan
Can I answer the question? Of the two of us … Hold on. Of the two of us, of the two of us, whose strategy has released more hostages, mine or yours? Because I, I supported a cease fire.

Eylon Levy
Our strategy.

Mehdi Hasan
And we got, we got … Hold on.

Eylon Levy
Our strategy.

Mehdi Hasan
We got, we got … Can I finish? Can I finish?

Eylon Levy
Your strategy is to give cover for Hamas’s war crimes-

John Donvan
Let, let, let him … Eylon, let him finish, please.

Mehdi Hasan
Over 100 hostages were released last November in the pause, in the cease fire deal. A lot of Israelis wanted that to continue. Hostages’ families wanted that continue.

Eylon Levy
Yes.

Mehdi Hasan
Netanyahu … Can I finish my answer? Netanyahu said no. In fact, I interviewed Zahir Omor, who’s uncle Avron Amundo was horribly killed in Gaza. Zahir Omor, by the way, was arrested today, he’s been arrested and attacked by the Israeli government that Eylon served in multiple times. He said to me, “Netanyahu and the government,” the government that Eylon was part of, “Always choose the wrong way. Ever since October the 8th, everything they do is directed at not getting the hostages back.” That is the plain truth. That is the nephew of a hostage. They don’t want you to hear about the hostages.

Eylon, and people like Eylon, use the hostages as political pawns. The hostages’ families are standing on the streets of Tel Aviv opposing the Netanyahu government, calling for a cease fire, calling for a deal. They don’t like Eylon Levy. They don’t support Eylon Levy.

John Donvan
Before, before-

Eylon Levy
Mr. Hasan, how many hostage rallies-

John Donvan
Before we-

Eylon Levy
… have you spoken at? How many hostages’ mothers have you embraced and hugged them-

Mehdi Hasan
How many-

Eylon Levy
… and told them, “I will get you whatever you need.”

Mehdi Hasan
[inaudible]

Eylon Levy
I was at Central Park.

Mehdi Hasan
Oh. Let me respond to this.

Eylon Levy
I was at Central Park last Sunday, at the rally for the hostages-

Mehdi Hasan
Well-

Eylon Levy
You were not. Mr. Hasan-

Mehdi Hasan
Let me ask you this-

Eylon Levy
If you really care about the hostages-

Mehdi Hasan
Let me ask you … Ooh, you got a little stunt going on there.

Eylon Levy
I have a spare hostage pin here.

Mehdi Hasan
We have a little stunt here.

Eylon Levy
If you want to show them you care-

Mehdi Hasan
Got it.

Eylon Levy
… You’re welcome [inaudible]

Mehdi Hasan
All right. Let’s … This is fantastic. Let’s go. So …

Eylon Levy
Put it on. Show them you care. Show them you care.

Mehdi Hasan
So-

Eylon Levy
I am [inaudible] families. I tell them, “I will do whatever it takes to help you get your kids home.” Show them you care and stop trying to exploit the hostages’ suffering-

John Donvan
Okay, okay.

Mehdi Hasan
This is like a [inaudible]

John Donvan
Eylon, allow him to respond. You’ve got your bit of stage craft. Please take it.

Mehdi Hasan
So let’s, let’s be clear. Let’s be clear. Let’s be clear. You saw the very, very performative outrage there from Eylon there. To be clear, don’t you lecture me about hostages when your government has killed more hostages than it has rescued. That’s on you. That’s on you.

Eylon Levy
[inaudible]. That is on Hamas.

Mehdi Hasan
[inaudible].

Eylon Levy
That is on Hamas.

Mehdi Hasan
[inaudible

]

Eylon Levy
Hamas … Hamas-

Mehdi Hasan
Let me answer this

Eylon Levy
Hamas is single-

John Donvan
All right, all right, all right.

Mehdi Hasan
No, I need to finish this point.

John Donvan
I’m going to let you finish this point, and then we’re moving on.

Mehdi Hasan
I will, I will happily support this pin because I support the release of all the hostages, and … and no, no, no, let me finish. Let me finish. And I support, I support the release of thousands of Palestinian detainees being raped and tortured, and children. Do you support that? Let’s work together. Do you support the release-

Eylon Levy
[inaudible]

Mehdi Hasan
Do you support the release of Palestinians?

Eylon Levy
I sup- … I do not support the release of terrorists.

Mehdi Hasan
Do you support the release of Palestinian children? Do you support the release of Palestinian children being tortured?

Eylon Levy
Mr. Hasan, anyone who is-

John Donvan
Let’s, let’s get some space here.

Mehdi Hasan
He caught on to the question.

Eylon Levy
Mr. Hasan, he won’t get on the hostage point.

Mehdi Hasan
I support the release of all innocent people.

John Donvan
[inaudible]

Mehdi Hasan
That’s all you’ve got, Eylon, gimmicks.

Eylon Levy
Once again … once again-

Mehdi Hasan
All you’ve got-

John Donvan
All right. All right, all right, all right. I have one more question before we pivot to some questions from some journalists who are joining us, and I want to talk about America’s involvement in the situation. The US has been largely supporting Israel. If the war in Israel is unjustified, that implicates the US in an unjust war. If the war is justified, then we have an ally that requites our help. Which is it?

Eylon Levy
I’m sorry, I didn’t hear the question.

John Donvan
We have, uh, uh, it’s about US involvement in the war. If the war is unjustified, that implicates the US in an unjust war. If it’s justified, we have an ally that requires our help.

Eylon Levy
When this war began, President Biden said that Israel is facing sheer pure unadulterated evil. It was so obvious in the moment of shock after October 7th that for Israel to defend itself, it has to dismantle the Hamas terror regime that President Barack Obama said, “We must stand by our ally Israel as it dismantles Hamas. The United States has made valuable support to Israel in its goal of bringing down the Hamas regime. What we need is pressure on Hamas and its patrons, Qatar, Turkey, and Iran, to let the hostages go. That pressure has not been forthcoming.

Mehdi Hasan
I mean … Before I came on stage, Gershon Baskin, who’s Israel’s most famous hostage negotiator, he WhatsApped me and said he’s got a deal, three week deal on the table with Hamas, that Hamas has agreed to to release all the hostages and end the war. He says it’s with Netanyahu, the ball’s in Netanyahu’s court. So when he keeps going on about hostages, tell him to speak to his former boss to agree to a hostage-

Eylon Levy
Gershon Baskin-

Mehdi Hasan
As for-

Eylon Levy
… is the negotiator-

Mehdi Hasan
As for the United States … As for the United States-

Eylon Levy
In whose deal to free [inaudible]

Mehdi Hasan
Please stop interrupting, Eylon, you’ve, you’ve had your performance-

Eylon Levy
To be released [inaudible]

Mehdi Hasan
As for the United States, it is tragic to me as a citizen of the United Kingdom and the United States, that my two countries have armed Israel as it carries out what the ICJ has called a plausible genocide-

Eylon Levy
No it has not.

Mehdi Hasan
As it arms the Prime Minister-

Eylon Levy
Mr. Hasan.

Mehdi Hasan
Who is wanted for war crimes.

Eylon Levy
Mr. Hasan.

Mehdi Hasan
The ICC’s Chief Prosecutor has called for the arrest of Yove Galant and Benjamin Netanyahu. The American government should not be arming a man wanted for war crimes, and Eylon Levy should’ve began his speech tonight apologizing for working for a man who is wanted for war crimes by the ICC’s Chief Prosecutor.

Eylon Levy
Mr. Donvan, you called me to account at the beginning of the debate and said I should not have called my opponent a liar. The former president of the ICJ, Joan Donahue, had to go on TV-

Mehdi Hasan
Yes, and many other judges disagreed with her.

Eylon Levy
… had to go on TV to explain-

Mehdi Hasan
The American judge who-

John Donvan
Let him speak.

Eylon Levy
… the ruling did not define there was a plausible genocide.

Mehdi Hasan
Actually, the other judges disagreed with her.

Eylon Levy
She had to go on TV to refute the lie. The only reason for you to make that lie-

Mehdi Hasan
The ICC Chief Prosecutor [inaudible], Eylon.

Eylon Levy
Whose arrest warrant claims were based on [inaudible]

John Donvan
All right, all right, all right.

Mehdi Hasan
[inaudible]

John Donvan
All right, this is not helping. We are, we are not able to hear what anybody is saying. We’re not able to hear what anybody’s saying. You’re both talking at the same time, and I’m talking at the third time. So let’s stop this.

Eylon Levy
Convenient.

John Donvan
I, I have a question for each of you before we pivot, which I would, I would … I want to ask you if you can answer without, without attacking one another. And I’m also curious to see if you can do it under 20 seconds, because we’re just curious. Each of you came to this debate, and by your decision to participate, we know, we saw on social media that both of you were attacked by members of your own camp for being, even on the stage, with somebody who’s holding the opposing view. But you showed up anyway. Eylon, why did you show up? 15 seconds.

Eylon Levy
Because Iran, the Palestinian nationalists and their allies are waging a war of misinformation that has one purpose. They want to destroy Israel. And they think it will be much easier to destroy Israel if they convince the world that Israel deserves to be destroyed. A full campaign of the most ridiculous lies to try to convince good ordinary Americans that when they’re ready to pull the trigger and massacre us once more, they should stand to one side and say, “Well, the Jews had it coming,” and I’m not willing to allow that to happen.

John Donvan
Do you recall the question?

Eylon Levy
[inaudible]

John Donvan
Sorry?

Mehdi Hasan
Okay. Just a 20 second answer?

John Donvan
Yeah.

Mehdi Hasan
I mean, look, I believe that what is happening in Gaza, uh, the killing of 16,000 children, the genocide in Gaza is the great moral tragedy of our time, the great crime of our time. And I will almost anywhere and take a stage with almost anyone to try and bring that war to an end and convince people that the war needs to end now.

Eylon Levy
May I add something?

John Donvan
No. No, we have to move forward. All right, we’re going to bring in some other voices now. We have, uh, some journalists. We have four journalists who are each going to ask one, I hope very short question, um, to, uh … they’re people have, uh, been writ- writing about the, the, the area for a long time, particularly about the situation now, uh, and they are certainly not monolithic in their own views.

I first want to go to Peter Beinart. He’s a journalist who’s written for Time, the New York Times, the Atlantic. He’s former editor of the New Republic and editor at large of Jewish Currents. Peter, if you can stand up, uh, there’s a microphone, I believe in the aisle for you. And, uh, ask your incredibly short question.

Peter Beinart
Thank you. Um. Eylon, you suggested that the goal of the war was depose Hamas from power, but on October 11th, Benjamin Netanyahu said the goal of the war was to destroy Hamas. On October 12th, Yuhov Galant said, the advancement said the goal was to wipe it from the Earth, because I think that they understood that even deposing Hamas would not necessarily make Hamas less of a fearsome threat. The Taliban didtn become less of a fearsome threat to the United States once they stopped holding power. Saddam and his forces didn’t become less of a fearsome threat once they no longer held power. They recognized that winning this war meant destroying Hamas, and yet your own former colleague [inaudible

]

John Donvan
Sorry, what’s your, what’s your question?

Peter Beinart
Said it’s not possible. To be clear, I’d like you to be on the record, do you think it’s possible to destroy Hamas or Netanya- yahu and Galant wrong?

Eylon Levy
I believe it is possible to remove the Hamas terror regime from power-

Mehdi Hasan
Can’t answer the question.

Eylon Levy
Whether leaders-

Mehdi Hasan
Can’t answer the question.

Eylon Levy
Whether leaders used belligerent rhetoric that exaggerated the goals of the war-

Mehdi Hasan
(Laughs)

Eylon Levy
No, look, Hamas needs to be destroyed. It’s an idea. Some ideas deserve to be destroyed. And whether that idea is destroyed or not, depends on the lessons that the people of Gaza take from this war. Will they conclude that terrorism is a dead end? That their leaders have repeatedly led them into disaster after disaster as part of their forever war against the Jewish state in any borders whatsoever, or will they take the lesson that in fact they were rewarded for the October 7th massacre? That is what is at stake here, and we are trying to convince the people of Gaza terrorism is a dead end. There is no light at the end of that tunnel.

Mehdi Hasan
[inaudible]

John Donvan
And you also get to respond. You can respond.

Mehdi Hasan
[inaudible]

John Donvan
You, you, you-

Mehdi Hasan
I mean, I think Peter made the point very eloquently, it’s a nonsensical war. It was a real war aims, of course, are what the Israeli ministers say, when Smotrich says the aim of the war is to annihilate Gaza, that is the aim. I take it at face value.

Eylon Levy
No, Mr. Hasan.

Mehdi Hasan
[inaudible

] and when they say this stuff, when talk about resettling Gaza, when they talk about staying in Gaza, that is what they mean. This is not about-

Eylon Levy
A position in-

Mehdi Hasan
This is not about … can I finish an answer, Eylon?

Eylon Levy
[inaudible ]

Mehdi Hasan
One more government policy … My god.

Eylon Levy
… against government.

Mehdi Hasan
I would just-

John Donvan
I, I, I-

Mehdi Hasan
I would just say this.

John Donvan
Yeah, let him finish, please.

Mehdi Hasan
I would say this. You want to convince the people of Gaza that terrorism is a dead end, then stop inflicting terrorism on them.

Eylon Levy
Every accusation is a confession, huh, Mehdi?

John Donvan
Our next question comes from Jillian Lederman. Uh. Jillian is an editorial fellow at the Wall Street Journal, former Chief Executive Chair of the Israel Leadership Network. Jillian, thanks for joining us, and what’s your question?

Jillian Lederman
Thank you. Um. My question is, given the current circumstances, do you believe that Israel pulling out of Gaza in 2005 was the right decision?

John Donvan
Who is that a question to?

Eylon Levy
It’s a difficult question-

John Donvan
Let me just ask you, Jillian, do you, are you appointing that to anybody in particular? Both can answer it, but … okay.

Eylon Levy
Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005 and never wanted to go back. It gave them Gaza. They had the option to turn it into Singapore, they chose to turn it into Mosul. They could have had a thriving state in Gaza after Israel pulled out and Jewish organizations paid to donate the greenhouses. Instead, they chose to rig for war. The tunnel network under Gaza is the largest public works project the Palestinians have ever undertaken. They did it for the sake of the October 7th [inaudible

]

John Donvan
Was it, was it a mistake to pull out? That was the question.

Eylon Levy
I don’t know.

John Donvan
Okay. No, fair enough. Fair enough.

Mehdi Hasan
Um. Simple, simple answer is, of course, Israel did not pull out of Gaza, as the ICJ has pointed out just recently.

Mehdi Hasan
… is, of course, Israel did not pull out of Gaza, as the ACJ has pointed out just recently. Gaza is occupied territory. Let me put it very simply to you. What, what Eylon doesn’t tell you is when, that when they pulled out, they kept control of Gaza’s land borders and sea borders.

Eylon Levy
Not with Egypt.

Mehdi Hasan
With Egypt. With Egypt. Israel and Egypt.

Eylon Levy
Of course we controlled the borders. We’re on the other side of it.

Mehdi Hasan
Kept the land borders. Kept-

John Donvan
Let, let, let him-

Mehdi Hasan
… [inaudible] answer without interruption. The land borders, the sea borders, the air. And, wait, wait, wait for it, wait for it. And the population registry. If you’re born in Gaza, you have to be registered with the Israelis. If you were born in New York, and your birth had to be registered with a foreign country, would you say you were occupied or not occupied? Would you say you were a free people?

John Donvan
Let him finish.

Mehdi Hasan
Or an unfree people? It’s an absolute lie. The occupation never ended.

Eylon Levy
Israel ended the occupation of Gaza in 2005. Under international law-

Mehdi Hasan
Then why did you keep the population registry?

John Donvan
Wait, let, let-

Mehdi Hasan
No, let me interrupt you. Why did [inaudible]-

Eylon Levy
Israel [inaudible]-

John Donvan
No, no, no. We’re, we’re, we’re … Wait, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it. We are done with the interruptions. It’s just destructive.

Mehdi Hasan
[inaudible].

John Donvan
So, you go. You be quiet.

Eylon Levy
The population registry isn’t an interesting question because Israel runs it in cooperation with the PA as part of the Oslo Accords. Hamas is free to run its own population registry because it has effective control inside Gaza.

Mehdi Hasan
[inaudible] under international law.

John Donvan
Mehdi, you’ll get your shot.

Eylon Levy
Under international law, occupation requires the effective control of territory.

Mehdi Hasan
Okay.

Eylon Levy
Everywhere in the world it is understood to mean boot on the ground. And the only reason to fabricate a new standard, to say that just because Israel doesn’t allow Hamas to build an Ismail Haniyeh International Airport, means that it is occupied, is as part of a campaign-

Mehdi Hasan
With-

Eylon Levy
… to try to make Israel responsible for civilians in Gaza-

Mehdi Hasan
Sorry.

John Donvan
Okay. No, no. Okay-

Eylon Levy
… so Hamas can take the resources-

John Donvan
Okay, Eylon-

Eylon Levy
… [inaudible]

John Donvan
… Eylon, we’re, we’re losing… Go ahead and respond to that.

Mehdi Hasan
No, no, I’ve got to respond to this. Briefly, very briefly. Eylon, a moment, a moment ago, a moment ago you all heard him proudly quoting the former president of the ICJ. The ICJ, literally, the other day, said Gaza is occupied. But Eylon and I went to the same university. We did the same degree. He didn’t do law. He’s not a lawyer. The ICJ says Gaza is occupied. It’s over. The debate’s over. You’ve lost that one. And you’re gonna lose this one.

Eylon Levy
No, that’s not the end. That is not the end.

John Donvan
Jillian-

Eylon Levy
Because a basic principle of [inaudible]-

John Donvan
[inaudible]

Mehdi Hasan
The ICJ disagrees. You’re done.

John Donvan
Jillian-

Eylon Levy
A basic principle.

John Donvan
Jillian…

Mehdi Hasan
You’re done.

John Donvan
Do you feel that your question was answered? Was it a mistake to pull out of Gaza? ‘Cause I don’t. But we’re gonna move on. Thank you for the question.

It would be helpful, and I real, I realize you’re both very passionate and have a lot to say about this, but it would be helpful, at least at the beginning of your answers, to stick to the questions.

Mehdi Hasan
I did. I said they, they didn’t pull out because they never pulled out. I mean, I don’t accept the premise of the question.

John Donvan
Okay. All right, fair enough. You’ve questioned-

Eylon Levy
Israel pulled-

John Donvan
Uh, uh, uh. Next up.

Eylon Levy
[inaudible]

John Donvan
Next up. Next up.

Eylon Levy
It ripped people out of their homes.

John Donvan
I know. I know. I, I know.

Eylon Levy
[inaudible]

John Donvan
I know. I know. I was there. I was there. I witnessed it.

Eylon Levy
He witnessed, Mehdi. It happened.

John Donvan
The part that you’re talking about.

Next up, we have, uh, Dean Obeidallah, a lawyer, a comedian, and a journalist who has hosted the Dean Obeidallah Show and a frequent commentator on CNN, MSNBC and The Daily Beast. Dean, thanks for joining us.

Dean Obeidallah
Thank you. I, I have a question for Eylon. You’ve defended everything the Israeli military has done. Everything. And Mehdi’s gone through it. Uh, my family lives in the West Bank, I, my question is: Is there anything that you would condemn Israel for, in terms of killing Palestinian Christians and Muslims, or are they all inhuman in your view and not worthy of any sympathy, dignity or self-determination as a people?

John Donvan
All right. All right. Hang on a second. Hang on. I, I, I have an issue with the question. The first part of the question, is there anything you would condemn from Israel, legitimate question. But the assumption that if he feels differently that he has no sense of the humanity of Palestinians is a bit of some baggage loaded into the question. So why don’t you take the question. Is there, is there anything that Israel is doing that you would condemn?

Eylon Levy
I have gone on TV as a government spokesman and when the army said that there was a particular mistake and a certain target should not have been hit, we fess up and admit our mistakes because that is what a responsible military should do.

John Donvan
You can answer that.

Mehdi Hasan
Okay.

Eylon Levy
But Israel is fighting an enemy whose use of war crimes is strategic and systematic. They’re not investigated on Hamas end. No one is ever called to account. Its use of war crimes against its own civilians while the hide behind them…

Mehdi Hasan
Okay.

Eylon Levy
… in their schools and hospitals to fire at us is strategic and systematic. And so I stand by my country…

Mehdi Hasan
So-

Eylon Levy
… as it fights to use proportionate force to dismantle the Hamas army of terror because, yes, my neighbors are human.

Mehdi Hasan
So-

John Donvan
Okay. Hang on.

Mehdi Hasan
I’ve got to respond. I’ve got to answer that.

John Donvan
I-

Eylon Levy
Because I, because I want a better future for them. No, no, please don’t, because [inaudible]

John Donvan
I, I have (laughs) an important pro-, I have a very important technical program note. I’ve received a message that the audience clapping volume is so loud that in the recording, uh, very frequently, it’s been impossible to hear what our debaters are saying. And-

Mehdi Hasan
Don’t clap.

John Donvan
And so what I would like you to do is to clap in between their points. Let them finish and then go for it, please.

Mehdi Hasan
So-

Eylon Levy
The gentleman challenged my humanity.

Mehdi Hasan
Can I?

Eylon Levy
And I would like to defend it.

John Donvan
Uh, I tried to let this go.

Eylon Levy
I want a future of peace between us and our neighbors. That cannot happen as long as the Hamas terror regime is in power.

Mehdi Hasan
So, so on-

John Donvan
Okay.

Mehdi Hasan
On the subject of, um… I’ll wait for the applause.

John Donvan
Okay.

Mehdi Hasan
On the subject of Eylon’s humanity, I asked him earlier if he supported the release of Palestinian children, he refused to say so. He can tonight. We’ll all wear this pin. Uh, let me say this on the West Bank-

Eylon Levy
Mr. Hasan, any children-

John Donvan
Let him, let him talk.

Mehdi Hasan
Let me say this on the West Bank, he cannot help but cherry-pick the evidence. He cannot pick, help but cherry-pick the evidence. He just said a moment ago, he tried to gaslight you. He said, “Hamas is never held to account.” Actually, the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court gave out five arrest warrant requests. Three for Hamas. Two for Israel. I support all of those arrest warrant requests. Do you? Do you?

Eylon Levy
Mr. Hasan-

Mehdi Hasan
Do you? It’s a yes or no question.

Eylon Levy
Every single line-

Mehdi Hasan
It’s a yes or no question.

Eylon Levy
Every single line-

Mehdi Hasan
Do you support accountability for all of them? [inaudible]

Eylon Levy
Absolutely. But you and what army?

Mehdi Hasan
Do you support arrest warrants for Netanyahu?

John Donvan
Wait, wait, wait. Now we can’t hear what you’re both saying.

Eylon Levy
Because you [inaudible

] I support accountability.

Mehdi Hasan
Do you support arrest warrants for Netanyahu?

Eylon Levy
No, Mr. Hasan.

Mehdi Hasan
Oh. Okay, so only [inaudible

] one side.

Eylon Levy
Because every single line, every single line in the request for arrest warrants by the-

Mehdi Hasan
[inaudible]

John Donvan
Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

Eylon Levy
By the prosecutor of the ICC…

John Donvan
We can’t hear him.

Eylon Levy
… is based on lies. Like the allegation of starvation, impossible to reconcile with. Over one million tons of aid that have entered Gaza since the start of this war…

Mehdi Hasan
There are literally 69 trucks going in right now.

Eylon Levy
… aboard more than 52,000 truck.

Mehdi Hasan
That’s a lie. He’s gaslighting.

Eylon Levy
52,000 trucks.

Mehdi Hasan
69 trucks right now. Did you know that?

Eylon Levy
Mr. Hasan-

Mehdi Hasan
69 trucks according to 15-

Eylon Levy
According to who?

Mehdi Hasan
According to 15 aid agencies.

Eylon Levy
Who are they quoting?

Mehdi Hasan
Who should we believe? 15 aid agencies…

Eylon Levy
Who are they quoting?

Mehdi Hasan
… or you and Netanyahu?

Eylon Levy
Mr. Hasan, who are they quoting?

Mehdi Hasan
Who should we believe.

Eylon Levy
Mr. Hasan…

Mehdi Hasan
15 aid agencies…

Eylon Levy
Mr. Hasan…

Mehdi Hasan
Or you?

Eylon Levy
These aid agencies are quoting UNRA.

Mehdi Hasan
The aid agencies or Hamas?

Eylon Levy
Do you believe that UNRA’s statistics are accurate? Yes or no?

Mehdi Hasan
Actually, no, they’re not.

John Donvan
Excuse me. Wait a minute.

Mehdi Hasan
[inaudible]

Eylon Levy
[inaudible]

John Donvan
Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute! Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

Mehdi Hasan
That’s a lie.

John Donvan
Wait a minute.

Mehdi Hasan
That’s a lie.

John Donvan
Is this helpful?

Audience
No.

Yes.

John Donvan
Yes for some? Okay.

Mehdi Hasan
Well, lies need to be stopped.

John Donvan
I just (laughs), I would just like to ask you to take turns.

Mehdi Hasan
Okay. I’ll wait.

John Donvan
And not talk at the same time.

Mehdi Hasan
Got it.

John Donvan
You’re doing worse at waiting, get better.

Eylon Levy
Over one million tons of aid. Now, according to Mr. Hasan, I don’t know what double-digit number he quoted, comes from UNRA.

Mehdi Hasan
Does not.

Eylon Levy
UNRA’s own dashboard on its website…

Mehdi Hasan
Does not.

Eylon Levy
… says that this is an incomplete register of data, that it cannot monitor all the cargo going in. Israel is monitoring it. UNRA is under-counting it by a factor of 10. That’s how you get to the bizarre statements like “Imminent famine in Gaza,” because the IPC review committee said that that assessment was based on not counting all of the trucks that have gone in.

Mehdi Hasan
So…

Eylon Levy
They literally…

John Donvan
Okay.

Eylon Levy
… under-counted trucks in order to make this…

Mehdi Hasan
Just-

Eylon Levy
… horrific allegation of starvation. [inaudible]

John Donvan
All right.

Mehdi Hasan
So, so the Israel-

John Donvan
Eylon, Eylon, your point is made.

Mehdi Hasan
May I respond to the speech?

John Donvan
Let him respond.

Mehdi Hasan
So you just began the whole answer premised on a lie. It’s not based on UNRA’s statistics. It’s based on their own experiences at Israeli crossings.

Eylon Levy
They do not have-

Mehdi Hasan
David Miliband, Eylon. David Miliband, a man you know. We’re both British, in front of this audience. David Miliband was the former foreign minister of the UK, a very pro-Israeli politician, served under Blair and Brown, not some Palestinian lover. David Miliband said on CNN, ” Our trucks are being stopped because they’re finding a tiny little surgical scissor or a nail clipper and they’re send the trucks back.” David Miliband is not some hater of Israel.

Cindy McCain is the head of the World Food Program. She is the widow of the most pro-Israeli senator of my lifetime, John McCain. She has accused Israel of blocking aid trucks, killing aid workers, starving children. Cindy McCain is not UNRA or Hamas.

John Donvan
Dean, dean, we are a long, long way from the question you asked. I don’t know. That’s, that’s bad moderating. I’m sorry that I…

We have another question from Jon Levine. Uh, Jon is a political reporter for the Sunday New York Post. He has credits on CNN.com, The Atlantic, The Chronicle of Higher Education. Uh, Jon, thank you for joining us, and, uh, come on in with your question, if you can stand up.

Jon Levine
Mic. Thank you. Okay. Thank you both for, thank you both for being here. Um, my question is for Mehdi. Um, I actually, I think it’s an easy question, so I hope we can get a direct answer. Uh, I’d like to ask you about your new media startup, Zeteo.

Um, in May, Rolling Stone reported that you raised-

John Donvan
Jon, this has got to be on the point we’re dis-, debating.

Jon Levine
It relates to Qatar, which I believe was brought up in the debate.

Mehdi Hasan
Please do.

John Donvan
We’re, we’re debating whether Israel’s action were justified.

Jon Levine
All right, look-

John Donvan
That’s not on point. I’m sorry. I’ve got to pass on it.

Mehdi Hasan
I’m happy to take-, I’m happy to take the question. Jon, I’m, Jon, I’m happy to take the question.

John Donvan
I, I-

Mehdi Hasan
I’m happy to.

John Donvan
We’re not-

Mehdi Hasan
I’m happy to take [inaudible]

John Donvan
We’re not here to talk about your career.

Mehdi Hasan
I’m happy to take the question.

John Donvan
I know you are. And I’m not.

Mehdi Hasan
Okay.

John Donvan
So I’m sorry, Jon. If you want to come up with a question that’s on point, about Israel’s actions in Gaza, go for it, please.

Jon Levine
You can’t tell me what questions I can ask.

John Donvan
Yeah, I can because this is a debate where you ask questions.

Mehdi Hasan
I mean, I… Now I really want to ask the question. I’m just curious. I just want to answer the question.

John Donvan
You can talk, uh, you can talk afterwards. All right.

Mehdi Hasan
I mean, the dude works for the New York Post, I’d prefer not to talk to him, but… It’s not my debate.

John Donvan
Thank you. Thank you. All right. We are coming down to the end for a closing statements, and that’s where each debater has the floor, again, exclusively to make their case one more time for you.

Um, Eylon, you’re up first in this. One more time, to remind people, I think they know that you’re arguing that Israel’s war in Gaza, I’m sorry, Israel’s actions in Gaza are justified. Uh, you can take the floor, and you have, uh, two minutes to tell us why. Two and a half minutes to tell us why.

Eylon Levy
After the sadistic massacre of October 7th, Hamas immediately told us: “If you leave us on our feet, we will do this again and again.” It wasn’t enough to cremate little children. It wasn’t enough to commit acts of gang, gang rape, rape, pedophilia, necrophilia. It wasn’t enough to gag people, bind them, tie them to trees and strip them. They told us, “We’re coming for you. If you leave us on our feet, we will do this again and again.”

This war has been horrible. We have paid a horrific price for it. We are trying to prevent the threat of a repeat October 7th massacre. And we are fighting a sadistic enemy that rig the battlefield in a way that said, “We’ve hidden our military assets under civilians. The only way that you can get to us is by going through civilians.” And that’s why Israel has taken more actions than any military in the history of the world. And so every commander from Afghanistan and Iraq will agree, in order to keep the civilians safe from their own leaders’ sick strategy of trying to sacrifice them. That is why it keeps telling them to evacuate. It never designated a safe zone where Hamas terrorist could be abuse…

Mehdi Hasan
Nor did you.

Eylon Levy
… hostages with impunity. It told them to go where it is safer, where it is safer and where Hamas is not. And on every occasion, on every occasion, it has been stymied by UN agencies saying, “No, keep them in Hamas strongholds.” By Hamas trying to fight to keep them in the strongholds while we try to keep them safe from their own psychopath leaders.

I asked Mr. Hasan, removing Hamas from power, legitimate? Yes or no? And he wriggled out of it. He said, “Well, defending Israel is legitimate but not the point you go into Gaza.” Okay, his response, “End the occupation. Let Hamas have an Ismail Haniyeh International Airport. Let it have a Mohammed Deif Naval Base.”

There is nothing you can do with a terror regime that is sworn to your destruction, whose goals are legitimately genocidal. We need this war to end. But we need this war to end in a way that ensures that Hamas cannot restart it at a time of its choosing, feeling emboldened and empowered because of international pressure generated by people like Mehdi Hasan to keep saving it from the wars that it starts.

John Donvan
And… [inaudible]. And Mehdi Hasan, you have the final word in this debate. One more time, your argument for why Israel’s actions in the Gaza war were not justified.

Mehdi Hasan
Ladies and gentlemen, were the actions of Israel in Gaza justified? Look, the argument is pretty simple tonight, and pretty hypocritical from Eylon. What we’ve heard tonight is that October, nothing justifies October the 7th, but October the 7th justifies everything.

Well, I’m here tonight to tell you, no, October the 7th does not justify everything. It does not justify the suffering in Gaza. It does not justify the killing of kids in Gaza. It does not justify the starvation in Gaza. It does not justify the rape and torture of Palestinian detainees, which Eylon refused to condemn tonight. It does not justify any of that. It doesn’t justify the tearing up of the Geneva Conventions, the defiance of international law and the ICC and our own Leahy Law.

Yes, October the 7th was a war crime, but the response to a war crime is not to commit your own series of war crimes on an epic scale. 33 times as many people killed since October the 7th as were killed on October the 7th.

And I’ll say this to you, look, very, very clearly, if you support this motion tonight, you are opening the gates of Hell. Not just in Gaza, but globally. Because every dictator and tyrant around the world will say, “Israel’s actions were justified? Then so are mine.” Putin, Assad, Kim, they’ll all say, “Israel killed kids. Israel killed aid workers. Israel killed journalists. So can we.”

And I will be, I will be very clear. I will be very clear with you tonight, if you are here tonight, ladies and gents, if you’re here tonight to defend what Israel’s done, knowing full-well what Israel has done, if you’re defending the human suffering in Gaza, the amputation of little kids, if you’re doing that in full-knowledge, then you’re not just here to defend the indefensible or justify the unjustifiable. I’m sorry, you’re a sociopath.

And I will thank you… Don’t, please. Please. Please don’t be a sociopath tonight. Don’t support war crimes. Don’t defend a genocide. Join me and every human rights organization in the world, every humanitarian aid agency on the planet, every American doctor and nurse who has been out to volunteer in Gaza, join us in opposing this ridiculous and offensive and horrendous motion. And on behalf of the al-Dos family, who Eylon clearly doesn’t give a damn about, I beg to oppose this motion.

John Donvan
Um, I am, uh, I, I am, I am curious, did anybody have their minds, did anybody have, did anybody have their minds changed tonight by anything they heard?

Audience
No. Not one thing.

None of it. Nothing.

John Donvan
Wow. All right. Thanks. Thanks.

Jon Levine…

Jon Levine
Can I ask my question?

John Donvan
Yeah. Yeah. So, so here’s the thing. The reason I turned down Jon’s question, we really try to preserve the integrity of what a debate is supposed to be. And it’s supposed to be about the question and it’s supposed to stay on the question. It’s supposed to avoid personal attacks. Um, and, but, but you came all this way, and Mehdi would actually, it seems like, to answer the question, so go for it. This is an extra.

Jon Levine
You, you were accused of being, uh, in the pay of… Yeah. Eylon accused you of being in the pay of Qatar earlier. You took objection to that. I’d like you to, uh, be able to dispel that you’re taking any money from Qatar by confirming that you’re not taking money for Zeteo for, for Qatar.

Mehdi Hasan
Yeah, so-

Jon Levine
Is Qatar funding Zeteo?

Mehdi Hasan
So, so-

Jon Levine
Yes or no?

Mehdi Hasan
It’s a great question, Jon, because you work as a media correspondent for the New York Post.

Jon Levine
[inaudible]

Mehdi Hasan
No, I’m not. I’m answering your question. Patience. We waited for you.

You’re a media columnist for the New York Post, were you not?

Jon Levine
A political reporter for the New York Post.

Mehdi Hasan
You were at one time a media columnist.

Jon Levine
[inaudible]

Mehdi Hasan
You should read the Washington Post interview that I did literally when Zeteo was founded. And Jeremy Barr, an excellent reporter, slightly better one than you, he asked me-

John Donvan
Oh.

Mehdi Hasan
He asked me that question. And I said, “No, we haven’t taken any money from foreign governments or foreign citizens.” Every investor in Zeteo is an American citizen, has nothing to do with Qatar. So nice try, better luck next time.

By the way, by the way, by the way, since we’re all in the spirit of asking questions, how do you feel about taking money from the racist Rupert Murdoch every day?

John Donvan
All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. I, I regret taking that question.

Mehdi Hasan
I don’t.

John Donvan
Um, I regret the times this debate failed to be high-minded by two people whom I otherwise respect. And I want to say that concludes our debate. I want to, I want to thank our debaters, Eylon Levy and Mehdi Hasan. We appreciate that you did show up and that you at least talked maybe not to one another but at one another vigorously and vociferously. And in fact, you were listening to one another if only to counter, but you were listening to one another. And I think that’s progress.

And I want to thank all of you in the audience for being here and being open to debate. Um, and I, I want to thank all of the journalists who joined us as well for, for moving the conversation in a more interesting direction.

So that is a wrap on this debate. We’re open to debate. I’m John Donvan. We’ll see you next time.