Presented in Partnership with the Council on Foreign Relations
ARGUING YES
Senior Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute
ARGUING YES
CEO and Founder of Strategy Risks
ARGUING NO
Research Professor and Director Emeritus of the 21st Century China Center at UC San Diego School of Global Policy
ARGUING NO
Senior Fellow and Director of International Economics at the Council on Foreign Relations
MODERATOR
Host and Moderator-in-Chief
This week:
- New episode: Can decoupling give America economic independence from China?
- A closer look at the U.S.-China trade deficit
- Join us on May 14th in Baltimore, Maryland for our next Hopkins Forum debate
- Your Sunday reading list
With tariffs and trade war headlines dominating the news cycle, we asked a pressing question in front of a packed, energized crowd at the Council on Foreign Relations’ New York headquarters: Should the U.S. cut economic ties with China?
This debate — part of our ongoing partnership with the Council — tackles the growing call for “decoupling,” a strategy aimed at reducing America’s reliance on its largest trading partner and strategic rival. Supporters see it as a path to greater national security and economic independence. Critics warn it could backfire, driving up costs for both businesses and consumers, and warn it would be a losing strategy.
Our compelling debaters, Susan Shirk and Benn Steil arguing against decoupling and Derek Scissors and Isaac Stone Fish arguing in favor — each with deep experience in U.S.–China relations — brought insight, urgency, and real-world stakes to the conversation, as shifting U.S. policies impact global markets and small business supply chains.
So, is decoupling the right protocol for the government to consider? Should the U.S. decouple from China? Listen to this debate now on your favorite podcast platform and YouTube, and join the community on our website. As always, let us know what you think.
DEBATING THE DATA
The Current State of Trade Between the U.S. and China
POINT/COUNTERPOINT
Should the U.S. Decouple From China?
YES: Derek Scissors
“Xi Jinping came over this some years ago and it’s been repeated since. It’s a good line from him, which is ‘We want to be less dependent on the world. We want the world to be more dependent on China.’ The Chinese goal is to put us in a worse and worse situation.”
NO: Benn Steil
“Decoupling is a man‑made disaster of epic proportions – Brexit on steroids, as it were. It will undermine the U.S. economy, undermine U.S. leadership, and undermine U.S. national security because prices in the United States and interest rates are going to be materially higher than they should be, and investment and employment are going to be lower.”
YES: Isaac Stone Fish
“The risks of engagement now far outweigh the benefits. I myself was an exemplar of engagement – I lived in China for six, seven years, I studied there, I worked there. Under Xi Jinping, all of those risks have gone up, and those risks get borne much more on Chinese Americans and citizens of China than they do for the folks in the audience.”
NO: Susan Shirk
“Decoupling is a losing strategy… China is much better prepared for decoupling than the United States is. Xi Jinping has been fireproofing the Chinese economy ever since he came into power in 2012… It has reduced its dependence on exports overall and particularly to the United States.”
Join Us For A Hopkins Forum Debate on AI Chip Controls in Baltimore, MD
In partnership with Johns Hopkins University’s Stavros Niarchos Foundation (SNF) Agora Institute, Open to Debate invites you to our new Hopkins Forum debate, “Can the U.S. Outpace China in AI Through Chip Controls?”, on May 14, 2025 at 6 PM.
Location:
Johns Hopkins University – Shriver Hall
3400 N Charles St, Suite 14
Baltimore, Maryland 21218
Join us for a live debate that will explore the high-stakes U.S.-China AI arms race. Attendance is free with registration.
WEEKLY POINTS OF VIEW
The U.S. Must Now Reckon with a Hegemon in the Mideast: Israel
Aaron David Miller and Steven Simon | April 14, 2025
The New York Times
Watch Aaron’s debate on whether flexing America’s muscles in the Middle East will make things worse
Adolescence’s message has echoed around the world – but a social media ban is the wrong move
Katrina vanden Heuvel | April 16, 2025
The Guardian
Watch Katrina’s debate on whether to say goodbye to mainstream media
Why a soak-the-rich tax hike is a disaster — for the economy and for Trump
Steve Forbes, Arthur Laffer, and Stephen Moore | April 16, 2025
New York Post
Watch Stephen’s debate on whether Trump was right to increase tariffs on Chinese imports
NASA should spend more on finding alien life
Avi Loeb | April 13, 2025
UnHerd
Watch Avi’s debate on whether a U.S.-China space race is good for humanity
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