John Donvan:

Hi everybody. Welcome to another debate from Intelligence Squared. I’m John Donvan, and I will be moderating as usual as this time we take on one of those topics we like to visit from time to time where we look at the ideas that underpin America’s political parties.

Last time around, we asked, “Has the GOP lost its way?” It, it was a good debate, and I recommend it. This time, the Democrats are up again, and here’s the question we are posing this time: is the Democratic party too far left? So let’s see what we get for answers. We have a four porse… We have a four person debate, two against two.

And let’s welcome them. For the team arguing yes in answer to the question, “Is the Democratic party too far left?”, contributing editor of the Free Press and host of the YouTube and podcast series Conversations with Coleman, Coleman Hughes. Coleman, thanks so much for joining us.

Coleman Hughes:

Thank you for having me.

John Donvan:

And your partner is political scientist and commentator, senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and co-founder and politics editor of the Substack newsletter The Liberal Patriot, Ruy Teixeira. Welcome Ruy, thanks so much for joining us.

Ruy Teixeira:

Glad to be here.

John Donvan:

Now, we have two, uh, opponents to, uh, this point of view. The team arguing no, that the Democratic party is not too far left. First, civil rights activist, co-founder of the Black Lives Matter movement, principal of the Black Futures Lab, host of the podcast Lady Don’t Take No, Alicia Garza. Welcome, Alicia. Thanks so much for joining us.

Alicia Garza:

Thank you for having me.

John Donvan:

And finally, a member of the US House of Representatives. From New York 16th District, Jamaal Bowman. Welcome, Congressman. Thanks so much for joining us and making the time as well.

Jamaal Bowman:

Of course. Thank you so much for having me.

John Donvan:

So, I want to get to it, I just want to say that at the be-be… We’ve already agreed that we’re all going to go on first name basis for the duration of this conversation. I just want to ask permission from all of you to interrupt when I feel as moderator it’s appropriate for me to do that in order to move things along or to clarify. Is that okay with everybody? I… Like, as they say on the airplane, a verbal yes from everybody.

Alicia Garza:

(laughs) [inaudible

]. Yes.

John Donvan:

Okay. Thank you. So we want to give each of you a couple of minutes to explain why you are yes or why you are no. We want to start with the yes side. Ruy, you are on the yes side. You’re saying the Democratic party is too far left. Tell us why.

Ruy Teixeira:

Right. Okay. Well, Coleman, actually, is our first affirmative. So-

John Donvan:

Oh, I, I don’t have… Well, let me just do it over again then. And uh-

Ruy Teixeira:

Okay.

John Donvan:

All righty. You get to see a behind the scenes look at, at a quick edit. Um, Coleman. You are up first to answer yes to the question, the Democratic party is too far left. Please tell us why.

Coleman Hughes:

So first, I just want to thank Intelligence Squared for off-offering me this opportunity. Um, I’m very excited to speak with you all. Um, I’m here arguing that the Democratic party has gone too far left. What do I mean by that?

I mean that in many cases, Democrats have adopted hyper left wing policies that are popular among elite, highly educated, influencers, journalists, activists that are disproportionately on social media, but not popular and uh, not particularly helpful among the broader constituency, much less the American population as a whole.

What kinds of policies am I talking about? I’m talking about during COVID, handing out emergency aid to restaurants based on skin color rather than based on, uh, the need of an individual restaurant. I’m talking about handing out, uh, medicine based on skin color, COVID antivirals in New York, as, as Cath-Cathy [inaudible

], um, prescribed. I’m talking about defunding and dismantling police forces of populations that were experiencing almost unprecedented levels of violent crime, and sometimes asking for more police, not less, and who pushed for this? The progressive wing of the Democratic party. I’m talking about opposing charter schools when, you know, in New York City we have a-at various times, over 50,000 kids on the waiting list for these schools trying to get in so that they can have an option so they can have school choice, which rich kids are, are… Already have. And who opposes the expansion of charter schools? The progressive wing of the Democratic party.

The question is why? Why does the party that feels itself and in some cases is the party of… Th-that sticks up for the disadvantaged and the working class, why is it that they, the progressive wing supports policies which don’t help the working class? Uh, and opposes certain policies w-which would.

My, my argument is that the Democratic party in some ways has grown more to care about the opinions of highly educated, highly online, um, elites more than the needs and, and opinions of the broader constituency. This is why Biden and Elizabeth Warren and various other Democrats will use a word like Latinx even though 80% of Hispanics have never heard that word.

Um, they a-and through no fault of their own… We’re all in a bubble in life, right? But they’re operating in a bubble where the far left ideas about race and gender and so forth are quite popular. But that is a tiny bubble, not representative of the broader public. And as, as public servants, it’s crucial that, uh, you know, we get out of the bubble and that we serve the needs of the broader constituency. So that’s what I mean when I say the Democratic party has gone too left, and I, I hope, uh, listeners will find something to agree with in my point of view.

John Donvan:

Thank you, Coleman Hughes. And did I mute myself? Am I on… Is everybody hearing me? Yep?

Jamaal Bowman:

Mm-hmm.

John Donvan:

Okay. Thank you, Coleman Hughes. Sounding odd coming back to myself. Thank you, Coleman Hughes. Um, now we swing over to the no side. Alicia, you are taking the position that the Democratic party is not too far left. Please explain why.

Alicia Garza:

Okay. So first of all, thank you to Intelligence Squared for having us and for having this conversation. Let’s just start with the premise of the question. To infer that the Democratic party is too far left is also to assume in some ways that it may be out of touch with the majority of the country. It in fact is saying, by assumption, that its policy positions and its vision for the country is not in step with the majority of voters or the majority of people in America who need politics to actually work for them. It is also to infer that the Democratic party is, uh… Can’t win elections, right? Because it is losing voters due to its policy positions.

I argue that both statements are actually patently false because they’re grounded in assumptions that claim to speak for a majority, but in fact don’t. There are reasons that the voters… That voters are leaving the Democratic party, just like there’s reasons that voters are leaving the Republican party. But despite polls that claim otherwise, it’s not because the positions of the party are too far left. Take it from me. (laughs)

There are, however, reasons that the Democratic party may or may not reflect the views of the majority of the country, but I would argue that this is also not because their positions on policy are too far left. A white majority in the economic… A white majority that is in economic, political, and social decline is actually the reason that voters are leaving the Democratic party and despite the fact that the policy positions of the Democratic party would in fact and do largely benefit the declining white majority, an inability to win victories for current and potential voters that improve their standard of living and their quality of life is another reason that votes for the Democratic party may be in jeopardy.

But overall, studies show and polls show that this debate in and of itself, the question of whether or not the Democratic party is moving too far left is actually driven by the attitudes primarily of older white men, a declining demographic overall who fear and denounce the demographic change that threatens their power and influence overall.

And while there may be, and I think there are good reasons, uh, to examine the policy priorities of both parties alongside the policy desires of the majority of the country, many of whom, if we’re talking about the majority, don’t vote or don’t vote consistently, then to continue to capitulate to the wanton longings of a declining demographic politically, socially, and numerically will always be a losing proposition for anybody who’s interested in winning elections.

John Donvan:

Thank you, Alicia. Um, now we swing back again to the yes side, and uh, Ruy Teixeira, it is your turn to tell us why you are arguing yes, the Democratic party is too far left.

Ruy Teixeira:

Yeah, I mean, I, I guess I start out by pointing out I think a lot of the things that Coleman mentioned in terms of things that in fact are not a majority position, they’re not really responded to by our distinguished opponent who, uh, instead basically made a lot of claims about how the Democrats, uh, in fact are winning elections and that the extent they are not winning elections and are losing voters, it’s strictly because of this so called declining white demographic.

Well, I would like to raise a few questions about that based on the actually existing data. If you look at the data, for example, if you compare 2012 to 2020, those two presidential elections, the Democrats gained, uh, 16 margin points among college ed- White college educated vote. White, college educated voters. They lost 19 points among non-white, uh, working class voters.

So I put to you the proposition that if we’re looking at where Democrats are losing votes, in fact, it is frequently the case they’re losing votes among non-white voters, particularly working class voters. It does not comport well with the case that Alicia was making.

Um, some further data along those lines, you can actually look at non-white working class voters from 2012 all the way up to 2022, which is our latest data, and my, my estimations indicate Democrats have lost 33 margin points. 33 off of their support of the non-white working class voters.

Again, this is… I comport with the idea that this is strictly a matter of the, uh, declining, uh, white demographic, uh, as opposed to, uh, other, more serious problems. In fact, I think what Coleman is basically saying, and it’s very important to stress this… Democrats are not only moving too far to the left and alienating say white working class voters, they’re alienating considerable parts of their base. How else do we explain that the Democrats, you know, lost 16 points on… Off of their support among Hispanic voters in 2020? How do we explain that the Democrats lost 14 points off of black voters between 2020 and 2022? I mean, I could just go on. You can look at the, look at the data from New York. Look at the massive swings towards the Republicans in Asian and Hispanic, uh, areas, uh, in the [inaudible

] election. I mean, you look at… Look at what happened. How did Eric Adams become mayor of New York? He became mayor of New York because he was running against the Democrats being too far left on crime and public safety. And that’s why he became mayor of New York, not because, uh, he was running on a super progressive platform or that’s what people were looking for.

Rather, what people really want is they want public safety, they want equal opportunity, and they want upward mobility. And to the extent the Democrats depart from that formula, and uh, as, as Coleman is rightly pointing out, uh, sort of put forward and identify themselves with a point of view and a sort of world outlook that is really peculiar to the college educated liberal slice of the American electorate. That’s not the way forward for the Democrats. It does move them too far to the left. It does move them too far from the median voter, and not just the median white voter, the median non-white voter.

So I put it to you that in fact, uh, our distinguished opponents are, are just not getting it right here on the basic data. On the basic sort of contours of the American electorate and what people want and what they do not want.

John Donvan:

Thank you Ruy Teixeira. And finally, in this round, our last opening statement comes from Congressman Jamaal Bowman. Jamaal Bowman, tell us why you argue that the Democratic party is not too far left.

Jamaal Bowman:

Well once again, thank you so much for having me, and thank you so much for having this debate. So no, the Democratic party has not moved too far to the left. As a matter of fact, I would argue that the Democratic party has not moved left enough.

Let me initially respond to what was just mentioned by one of my opponents. The reason why Eric Adams won his mayoral race is because there were four other candidates in that race that split the vote. If it was a one on one race between him and let’s say Maya Wiley, the results may have been very much different.

Secondly, Republicans, to their credit, have done a better job at fearmongering and messaging and running better campaigns, particularly here in New York state, which is why we saw many of those Democratic [inaudible

] flip Republican.

Third, the majority of black and Latino still vote Democrat, so it’s important to say that outright.

The reason why I say we haven’t moved left enough is because the majority of the American people want us to end child poverty, yet we did not pass Build Back Better because of Democrats in the Senate that stopped us from, um, continuing the child tax credit.

Secondly, the majority of the American people support affordable housing, but unfortunately, Democrats haven’t been able to provide that in Congress and in states that continue to acquiesce towards developers and large corporations as opposed to providing affordable housing. We still have an education formula that funds schools based on local property taxes which allow wealthy schools to receive more money than poor schools. We have to address that issue very directly.

We have, we, we, we need to move further to the left because even though we are living in a climate catastrophe, we still continue to drill for oil and gas. We still incarcerate more people than any developed nation in the world. We still have a police force that murders with impunity. We… There are so many issues that Democrats continue to not lean on because we continue to acquiesce towards corporate interests and the wealthy elite trying to out-Republican the Republican.

We haven’t moved too far to the left. We have moved closer to the American people. The reason why someone like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez can, can beat a long term serving Democrat like Joseph Crowley is because the people demanded something different. The reason why Jamaal Bowman can beat a long term serving Democrat like Elliott Ingle is because the people demanded different. We are responding and must continue to respond to the American people on the ground, and I’ll end with this: there was supposed to be a so called red wave in 2022. That red wave did not happen, because Democrats organized across the country to ensure if the Republicans did take the House, that they would only take it by a slim margin and thankfully we were able to grow our numbers in the Senate.

So as long as we continue to acquiesce to corporate interests and the wealthy elite and not go big in terms of getting big money out of politics, we’re not moving left enough.

John Donvan:

Thank you, Jamaal Bowman. All right. Now we move on to, after that round of opening statements, so a, a, a portion of the program which is comprised of free wheeling conversation among the four of us, but I’d like to kick it off with a question to you, Coleman. Um, we, we heard Alicia make the case that, in her view, the party is chasing a part of the populace that is in decline, just demographically. Uh, a-aging white voters. Um, which raises the question to me of what is, in your view… And I want to bring the same question to Alicia. What is the natural constituency to the Democratic party, in your view?

Coleman Hughes:

I don’t think that there’s any natural constituency. I think it changes over time based on the policies that the Democratic party adopts and the needs and problems that you speak to, okay? So I don’t, I don’t subscribe to the theory that because people are one color or the other, they’re a permanent constituency of, of any party. That’s uh, I mean… Look. In the 1920’s, black people used to vote Republican ’cause they used to be the party of civil rights, and then they switched, right?

So people switch over long periods of time. Um, and that’s happening bit by bit every year and, and you look at the data that, uh, Ruy c-cited on that point, and the Democratic party is increasingly becoming the party of college educated and the, the Republican party is taking some of those non-college educated votes, including white people and people of color, black people, Hispanic people.

John Donvan:

So, so while saying there’s no natural constituency, you’re saying there’s a de facto constituency, which you are saying is be-becoming increasingly limited to college educated elite people?
[inaudible

].

Coleman Hughes:

Yeah, to put it very succinctly, the more and more that the Democratic party becomes the party of the language, the rhetoric, and the needs of the college educated voter, the more that the working class of all colors gets the signal this is not my party. They’re not-

John Donvan:

Okay.

Coleman Hughes:

As much speaking to me as they are to the college educated elites.

John Donvan:

Thanks, thanks for the clarification. I want to take exactly that, that, that description, then, to Alicia. Do you, do you agree, Alicia, that that’s… That that represents what the, the messaging of the Democratic party has become somewhat limited to?

Alicia Garza:

Well, let’s talk about the conversation about the constituency of the Democratic party, who is the natural base? And I would agree with my opponent that perhaps there is no natural base. There is, however, a consistent base. When I think about who is the base of the Democratic party, I’m not doing that just to wax poetically. I’m doing it to understand what it takes to win elections. And my understanding of what it takes to win elections is that you have to do two things.

The first thing you have to be able to do is activate your most loyal and consistent voters. Uh, I think we can agree that the most loyal and consistent voters for the Democratic party are in fact voters of color, particularly black voters, and uh, Latino voters.

But then you also have to get people who don’t vote or inconsistently vote to not only turn out and vote, but you have to get them to do that consistently. And that is really where the crux of the problem is here. And I think it’s important for us to understand that when we’re looking at who are the constituencies that are up for grabs, uh, it’s not black voters. Black voters are not in droves or even in any significant percentage points, uh, being driven to the Republican party despite some, you know, weak efforts to get there.

Uh, Latino voters, it is a little bit more of a toss up, but there’s actually more of an investment, uh, from the Republican party to invest in Latino voters and Latino voter outreach and in particular, among, uh, evangelicals.

John Donvan:

Right, okay.

Alicia Garza:

Uh, Latinos. But then there’s a whole wide swath of people for whom neither party speaks to the things that they care about. And it is both inaccurate and unfair to characterize that as a move too far left to the Democratic party. For example, uh, in, in my organization where we polled over 60,000 black people who vote in this country, uh, it… In our data indicates that black voters are actually largely to the left of the Democratic party and its policy positions.

Uh, when you look at women in this country, both white women, right, and women of color, uh, what we find is that the, uh, the issue priorities, right, uh, aren’t always matching these constituencies that are up for grabs. And that’s really what is at the crux of the issue here, is which party is appealing to these constituencies based on the things that they care about?

But to say that the Democratic party is moving too far left, and that is why they are losing voters, I am arguing, uh, is a misnomer and is not actually backed by data. Uh… (laughs) You cannot say, right, that uh, because, uh, there was a drop in percentage points of voters of color, for example, who voted for Democrats, that it was a result of their policies. You can, however, argue that-

John Donvan:

Okay.

Alicia Garza:

These voters are saying, uh, that neither party actually represents their, their interests.

John Donvan:

So I want to take this to Ruy, then. What we hear Alicia saying is that there’s… Yes, there’s, there’s definitely disaffection with the Democratic party. But, but, but it’s… A leftist agenda is not, in, in Congressman Bowman’s opinion, even a thing, really. And secondly, that it’s not the reason that that disaffection’s taking place.

Ruy Teixeira:

Well, I mean, I would just again call your attention to the basic trend patterns that we’re seeing here.

John Donvan:

Well, but-

Ruy Teixeira:

Why is it that as the Democratic party has moved to the left, and I think it has in many ways, and Coleman has outlined them, why is it that the Democrats are hemorrhaging working class and non-white votes and gaining white college-educated and liberal votes? I don’t think that’s a coincidence. I think that their, uh, their persona, their brand, the way they’re coming across to a great, you know, sort of mass of people in the country is, uh, too far to the left as far as a lot of those voters are concerned.

And in fact, I think our distinguished opponent should be agreeing with Coleman and I about the problem this poses when they go too far to the left on things like race and crime and a variety of other social issues, because it gets in the way of building a coalition that can actually deliver the material-

John Donvan:

Ruy, let me, let me jump, let me jump in-

Ruy Teixeira:

[inaudible

].

John Donvan:

Ruy-

Ruy Teixeira:

To, uh [inaudible

].-

(

):

John Donvan:

Ruy, let, let me, let me jump in to ask you to, to clarify… I, I want to go to Alicia’s point that there are lots of other reasons for people to be dis-disaffected with the Democratic party, and that a leftist agenda is not part of it. What, what is your case for… You said it’s not a coincidence.

Ruy Teixeira:

Mm-hmm.

John Donvan:

But it is a concurrence. Why do you make the case that those two things are causal?

Ruy Teixeira:

Well, for example, let’s take the issue of crime. Okay? Very important issue, it was significant in 2020 and in 2022. The Republicans are preferred over the Democrats by 20 points or so on the issue of crime. Uh, Biden averages minus 21 on his net approval on crime or disapproval than approval. The Democrats became identified with an agenda that had to do with less policing, not more policing as a result of the critical activity around the Black Lives Matter movement, how Democratic politicians positioned themselves, that has been widely, widely repudiated by voters.

Uh, for example, there was a poll in Detroit. Uh, heavily black, heavily Democratic Detroit, that showed that black voters, by nine to one, wanted more police, not less police in their communities. And this was during the whole, uh, kerfuffle about, uh, and sort of um… You know, general debate about Black Lives Matter.

So I mean, data has shown over and over and over again what people want is more and better police, and they don’t want less policing. They’re very, very concerned about public safety and they want the Democrats or whatever party is in control to provide it. That’s an example of being too far to the left and driving away voters who could in fact be for you.

I mean, you know. There’s other examples.

John Donvan:

Okay. No, I, I, I appreciate you giving us a concrete example, ’cause I think it would be useful to talk about an example where whether a policy is number one represents a leftist policy, number two whether it’s causing harm to the Democr-Democratic interest or not. So I want to go to Jamaal Bowman on the question of, of, of policing, where Ruy is making the case that, uh, some, some Democrats… Part of the problem with all this is that Democrats are not a monolith, but some Democrats are, are arguing for defunding the police, or at least using the rhetoric.

And he’s making the case that this is a turn off to a large number of voters of, of all groups. So, can you take that on, please?

Jamaal Bowman:

Yeah. So before we go to the policing issue, I want to go specifically to voters and what demographic, dem-demographic of voters are disenchanted with the Democratic party. There are tens of millions of people disenchanted with the entire political system because the political system is not responsive to their needs overall. And the political system and the people within that system do not engage them in an emotional, personal way that pulls them in to be a part of our democracy.

So there are tens of millions of people who consistently do not vote in primaries, neither in local elections, because of this disenchantment. It’s not just a party thing. It’s the entire system and representatives of that system.

To the point of policing, so first of all, I, I would… I, I need, I need you to reference this data and reference these polls that you both continue to cite, because 20 points, uh, for police? Like I, I have not seen polling like this. Um, the polling I have seen is more balanced or uh, pe- Like, I’ve seen people prefer the Democratic approach to public safety, which is not just about defund, it’s about reallocating resources towards the core issues that create crime in the first place.

Do not talk to me about more police. And you’re not talking to me about poverty. Why do people commit crime in the first place? Who are incarcerated in our jails and prisons? People who come from poverty, who have struggled with housing, who have struggled with substance abuse and mental health disorder. We have to deal with those core issues to make us generally more safe, quote unquote.

And so, that’s what I hear from constituents on the ground. That’s what I have seen in polling. Again, Republicans have been better at messaging, at fearmongering, at weaponizing certain issues. That’s what they do best. What we need to do better, and I agree with my opponents on this, is to engage everyday people, particularly those who are disengaged, to pull them into the political process so that they know this is your country, this is your democracy, we need your voice. And that’s why my initial premise, we haven’t moved left enough if that’s even a thing. Because it’s not… (laughs) It’s about people.

Like, we have to serve the people. We have to move towards the people. And that’s why people like myself, Ayanna Pressley, [inaudible

], Rashida Tlaib, many in the progressive caucus or others, that’s what we are trying to do. We are trying to govern with the people as Democrats and the people are responding positively to that.

Coleman Hughes:

Can I respond to that? [inaudible

].

John Donvan:

Yeah, please Coleman, uh, uh, I was going to go to you next, so please do. Yeah.

Coleman Hughes:

Yeah. I mean, you asked for a poll, I’ll give you, I’ll give you the link too. It’s Gallup did a poll at the height of 2020 during the racial reckoning, and they asked just black Americans, “Do you want more police in your neighborhood? Less police? Or the same?” 60% of black Americans said the same. 20% said more, and 20% said less. Is that 20% that said less, that’s 1 in 5 black Americans h-had the view of BLM and roughly defund. That’s a minority.

But you would never have gotten that impression from the way it was in the media, um, and when it was put to a vote in the referendum in Minneapolis, uh, dismantling the police lost by 18,000 votes. Right?

So this was… There was a huge, huge disconnect between what just black people wanted… Like forget, forget white Americans for a moment. Huge disconnect from what black people wanted on the issue of law and order and crime. And look, people don’t have the time to wait for so- Poverty to be solved if they’re dealing with crime in their communities. You may have a 20 year plan to get rid of crime by curing poverty, but people have been promising that for-

Jamaal Bowman:

Why do we need a 20 year plan to cure poverty?

Coleman Hughes:

Because no one’s ever-

Jamaal Bowman:

Why, why the number-

Coleman Hughes:

Done it in 100 years, and people don’t have the time to wait.

Jamaal Bowman:

Because no one’s tried to do it! Because no one is trying to do it! They are investing in, in, in, in-

Alicia Garza:

[inaudible

].

John Donvan:

Well-

Jamaal Bowman:

In areas that do not cure poverty. Now, based on the poll you just shared, 80% of the people polled do not want more police!

Coleman Hughes:

I didn’t say that. I said-

Jamaal Bowman:

Oh.

Coleman Hughes:

I gave you, I gave you the breakdown.

Jamaal Bowman:

60% were the same. 20% were less.

Coleman Hughes:

20% were more.

Jamaal Bowman:

That means 80% of the African Americans polled do not want more. So what are we doing as Democrats because we want to show we love the police? We’re putting more money towards
police. As a [inaudible

]-

Ruy Teixeira:

[inaudible

] choice between more or less, they, they generally t- It’s…

Alicia Garza:

Okay, can I-

John Donvan:

[inaudible

].

Jamaal Bowman:

Listen man, listen. I, I-

John Donvan:

Hold on, everybody.

Jamaal Bowman:

[inaudible

] best math student. I wasn’t the best math student, but I could add, man.

Alicia Garza:

(laughs)

John Donvan:

I want to bring Alicia [inaudible

].

Coleman Hughes:

Does defund… Jamaal. Does defund sound like I want the same?

Jamaal Bowman:

Man, nobody [inaudible

]-

John Donvan:

Hold it. Time out. Time out. Time out. Time out, everybody. Let’s [inaudible

].

Jamaal Bowman:

Reduce the Democratic platform. I-

John Donvan:

hold on. I want to bring Alicia into this conversation.

Jamaal Bowman:

Well let me finish my point first.

John Donvan:

Well no, I, I, I said I’m going to have the right to interrupt, because I want to bring Alicia into the conversation.

Jamaal Bowman:

But I wasn’t finish my point. And they just jumped into my point! Like R-Ruy jumped in on my [inaudible

]-

John Donvan:

I’ll give you your, I will give you your chance and, and-

Jamaal Bowman:

Okay.

John Donvan:

Yeah. Play [inaudible

].

Jamaal Bowman:

All right. [inaudible

].

John Donvan:

Thanks, Alicia.

Alicia Garza:

All right. Thank you. Uh, so you know, this is, this is a typical talking point. Uh, using, uh, black voters and public safety as a way to talk about how the Democratic party is moving too far left. And I want to be very clear.

Uh, I’m still looking for the Democrats that are pushing, uh, and winning legislation around defund. In fact, our own president, President Joe Biden, who I believe you cannot say is the captain, uh, of Wokeville, uh, started off 2022 saying that he wanted to refund the police. Joe Biden is a top Democrat in this country.

I also want to say we can throw polls around until, uh, the cows come home. My organization, uh, recently did a poll of black voters. 1400. Uh, in three states in this country. Asking about public safety, asking about their positions. Uh, uh, on Joe Biden’s policies. And in fact, uh, what is true about black voters is that, yes, we do not want services defunded in our communities. And black people think, uh, policing is a service.

However, uh, black voters also do not favor, and you can find this on our website, blacktothefuture.org, uh, black voters do not favor more funding for policing. They favor more funding to prevent the root causes of crime. There are many polls that say the same thing. Uh, I think it’s important that we, uh, really dive in here to, uh, making sure that we’re not picking up, uh, uh, fearmongering rhetoric that can be thrown around by, by all parties, in fact.

Uh, I, I do agree that not only, uh, is the Democratic Party a large coalition, it needs to continue to be. But I think you would also agree that it is very important, uh, to make sure that you are speaking to… Accurately speaking to issues (laughs), right, that the majority of people agree on.

And what is real is that this narrative that the Democratic party is moving too far left is actually not fully agreed on (laughs) by the majority of Democratic voters, in particular the most active base of Democratic voters. And when we talk about black voters, I do want to just underline and underscore again. When you are talking to black voters and polling black voters about their positions on policy, they are to the left of the Democratic party. (laughs)

And so, it is not that voters are leaving the Democratic party because the Democratic party is too far left on their issues. It’s that there is a perception that government as a whole is not working of the average person.

And so, if you address that, then you can address some of these discrepancies. But to say that there is some, uh, huge majority of left Democratic po- Uh, politicians who are driving (laughs) the policy priorities of the Democratic party is just false, and-

John Donvan:

[inaudible

].

Alicia Garza:

I would like to see examples, right? Besides the squad, right? I would like to see examples of who are these far left Democrats (laughs) right-

John Donvan:

So, so let me, let me-

Alicia Garza:

Who are pushing the party so far left-

John Donvan:

[inaudible

].

Alicia Garza:

That it is-

John Donvan:

I want to take your point-

Alicia Garza:

Disconnected from the rest of the country.

John Donvan:

I want to take your point to Ruy, because… A-and two points, the, the… Jamaal Bowman congressman pointed out that there was no red wave, as much as it was predicted, uh, in the 20, uh, 22 elections. With the case being made that the Democratic party was getting out of touch. And yet, there was no red wave.

But secondly, Alicia is making the point that in practice, and at the federal level, the, the, the party has not been doing crazy radical stuff. In fact, ambitions of the progressive wing of the party for things like a Green New Deal, greater social safety net, all of which Joe Biden initially came into office trying to push, qui-quickly kind of collapsed. And that’s because of opposition from within the Democratic party. That it wasn’t so far left in practice.

You had Joe Manchin, you had others who were not going to go along. So I’d like you to take on that perception that Alicia is putting out there, that in fact, in practice, the party has not been so far left.

Ruy Teixeira:

Well, I mean, uh, where to start with that? Well first of all, the red wave. Uh, the reason why the Democrats did as well as they did, relatively speaking in 2022, is not because they were really progressive, more people loved it. It was because the Republicans nominated a bunch of really bad extreme candidates who were basically defeated by much more moderate candidates.

If you look at the House representatives that held the line in this particular election, it was invariably moderate Democrats who were able to do it. Progressive Democrats, and to the extent that they were influenced, were actually an albatross around the Democrats. Why did they lose four seats in New York? Why did they lose three seats in Florida? All of these seats were im- Basically implicated and had something to do with the kind of stance Democrats were associated with on issues like policing and crime and so on.

So, I don’t think it’s adequate to say because Biden, for example, might say, “Let’s defund the po-” You know, “Let’s not defund the police, let’s fund them,” that therefore the Democratic party gets out of jail free on all these contentious social issues. I think that’s incorrect. And otherwise, how could we explain why Biden is now gone to the extent of actually signing a bill passed by Republicans and Democrats in Congress overriding the DC Crime Bill, which will reduce penalties for, uh, crimes like carjacking? It’s because he feels and understands and correctly believes that Democrats have gone too far to the left.

I would, you know, I would argue that my opponent’s, my distinguished opponent’s position is in fact in opposition to the head of their very own party, the Democratic party who clearly thinks the Democrats have gone too far to the left in some ways and needs to walk it back.

And I would also add this in terms of something the Congressman said earlier about, uh, people like himself and AOC and so on speaking to the people. No no no. They do not speak to the people in a broad sense. They, they are representatives from plus 20 and plus 28, respectively, Democratic partisan districts where basically anyone who gets the nomination of Democratic party line will win that election.

Elections are all about building large coalitions, reaching swaying voters and persuadable voters all over the country, winning in competitive districts, winning in competitive states. Look, you want to complain about Joe Manchin? And the problem the Democrats have is not Joe Manchin. The problem is they don’t have enough Joe Manchins because they don’t have enough senators. They can’t win in a lot of these more rural conservative states where they used to win before the Democratic party had, in fact-

John Donvan:

Okay.

Ruy Teixeira:

Got as far left as it has.

John Donvan:

[inaudible

]. Jamaal, jump in please.

Jamaal Bowman:

I’m going to jump right in. Um, so I don’t know if you saw the results of the primary, uh, election in 2020 when there were… There was a Democrat primary and AOC and the results of that election. So it’s not just about any Democrat. It’s about the right Democrat. A progressive Democrat.

I had two opponents in my primary in 2022, and I was able to garner upwards of 56% of the vote while underperforming in two parts of my district. Third, the progressive caucus in Congress is the largest caucus in Congress by far. And it was the progressive caucus that helped to usher in historic investments in dealing with the issue of climate change, it’s part of the inflation reduction act at 370 billion. We now will have the opportunity to negotiate drug prices, uh, under Medicare because of the fight from Bernie Sanders and other members of the progressive caucus and insulin is capped right now at $35, uh, per month because of the progressive caucus and the entire party.

Let me also say this. The president and the majority of our caucus and American people, we support, uh, uh, more progressive taxes on the wealthy. We support higher taxes on corporations. We support universal childcare. We support finally joining other developed nations at providing a paid leave. We support the labor movement. As a matter of fact, uh, not only did we get seven do- Seven days of paid leave, uh, to be a part of the recent rail workers contract in the House, unfortunately it failed in the Senate, but you know. That, that is, that is our work. We, we, we are a big tent. Very diverse. Doing everything we can to meet the needs of all people. We support preserving social security and Medicare. This is what the party is all about and has been all about.

And so, when I see the president, which was a mistake, by the way, uh, for Congress to step into the DC Crime Bill, in my opinion. That was a mistake. It’s a mistake to go forward with the Willow Project. It’s a mistake to continue to pander and acquiesce to a so called moderate, uh, independent center, um, but that’s what the Democratic party has always done, which is why, uh, historically marginalized community aren’t… Don’t get involved in our politics.

We need to be who we should be, and who the people are demanding us to be. And that is more progressive on all of the issues I mentioned.

John Donvan:

Coleman, does the Democratic party stand too far to the left on issues of immigration?

Coleman Hughes:

Oh, on the issue of immigration, I mean, that’s, that… That’s a tough one. Um, I think certainly they are far to the left of what they were in say the mid-aughts. I think, um, fundamentally, most countries in the world, most people want a border, and then once you have that, you, you are able to decide how many people and, and who to let in. And we don’t really have a border on the southern end.

I’m personally someone that would favor high levels of legal immigration, but I know, um, many people disagree with that. And I think the rhetoric on immigration, you know, coming from someone like Kamala Harris who, who had the unfortunate gaff about, you know, oh, have I been to the border? Well, I haven’t been to Europe either. Right? Signaling that for people who do live on the border who are impacted by low skill immigration.

Um, by the way, many black Americans are, um, in terms of wages being depressed by competition from, um, from labor. Um, you know, many of those people actually stand to, to lose on net when lots of low skilled labor comes over, right?

This is, again, this is not an issue that college educated elites-

John Donvan:

But, but, but-

Coleman Hughes:

Care about, because the Democrats-

John Donvan:

Yeah, but-

Coleman Hughes:

[inaudible

]-

John Donvan:

But my question to you, to you though, is that do you put their position on im- On immigration on that list that you spoke about at the beginning, like defunding the police, opposing charter schools? Um, um, uh-

Ruy Teixeira:

I would. (laughs)

John Donvan:

Go ahead.

Coleman Hughes:

Um, I mean, I, I think, I mean, I listed the ones that I thought were the most poignant to me, so opposition to charter schools, defunding the police, et cetera.

John Donvan:

Right.

Coleman Hughes:

Um, these are ones that are just clearly not in the interest of the working class and yet are, are, are the position of the progressive wing of, of the, uh, uh-

John Donvan:

Okay.

Coleman Hughes:

Of, of the Democratic party. But immigration could, could be listed on that list.

John Donvan:

Really? You-

Coleman Hughes:

As well. Yeah.

John Donvan:

[inaudible

].

Ruy Teixeira:

Look. We know from the data that people think the Democrats are doing a god awful at the border, including among Hispanic voters. You can see-

Jamaal Bowman:

What data?!

Ruy Teixeira:

Democrats-

Alicia Garza:

(laughs)

Jamaal Bowman:

What data?!

Ruy Teixeira:

[inaudible

].

Jamaal Bowman:

What poll?!

Ruy Teixeira:

I mean, I can send you links.

Jamaal Bowman:

Reference the data!

Ruy Teixeira:

Congressman, but we are having a conversation here.

Jamaal Bowman:

We having a debate, man. You got to reference the data.

Ruy Teixeira:

I, there’s a bunch of Texas poll-

Jamaal Bowman:

You keep saying the data. Anyone can do a poll.

Alicia Garza:

(laughs)

Jamaal Bowman:

The Washington Examiner can do a poll.

Ruy Teixeira:

Congressman, you’re just going to have to take it on faith that when I refer-

Jamaal Bowman:

What do you mean on faith?

Ruy Teixeira:

To the data, I actually-

Jamaal Bowman:

This is NPR, man.

Ruy Teixeira:

What am I going to do, like give you the sites for everything I say?!

Jamaal Bowman:

[inaudible

].

Coleman Hughes:

Hold on. All right. Hold on.

Ruy Teixeira:

You’re being ridiculous! This is not-

Coleman Hughes:

Last time you asked for a poll, I gave you it. I gave you a Gallup poll. I gave you a Gallup.

Jamaal Bowman:

You gave me a poll that, that proves our argument, not yours.

Coleman Hughes:

All right. I gave you a Gallup poll.

Jamaal Bowman:

I’m asking you. [inaudible

].

John Donvan:

This is, uh, this is time for some moderating to happen.

Alicia Garza:

(laughs)

Coleman Hughes:

This is browbeating.

Ruy Teixeira:

Look, I mean the, uh-

John Donvan:

I appreciate the robust enthusiasm of all the debaters, um, and I understand that Jamaal Bowman, you’re saying you’re looking for the study, and Ruy, you’re saying that you don’t have like ready [inaudible

]-

Ruy Teixeira:

Yeah, look at the average-

John Donvan:

But you can chip in, and, and we’re… And you’re asking us to take it on good faith that you’re, you’re not making stuff up.

Ruy Teixeira:

Right. I’m not making stuff up. I’m actually do this somewhat professionally as a living. I, I, I never refer to data that don’t exist. I try to make an argument based on existing-

John Donvan:

Then let me ask this question.

Ruy Teixeira:

[inaudible

].

John Donvan:

Let me ask this question.

Ruy Teixeira:

Grandstanding [inaudible

]-

John Donvan:

Let me just ask this question, Congressman Bowman. If Ruy provides you with the data and it’s compelling, would you be satisfied by that? If there is data that he can… Is there… If he sends that to you, in theory, you would accept that?

Jamaal Bowman:

Well, it depends. Here’s my point of continuing to ask for data and or the poll. There was polling that showed Lee Zeldin was going to win the gubernatorial race in our state when he was running against Kathy Hochul. That did not happen, right?

Ruy Teixeira:

Look,

Jamaal Bowman:

There was [inaudible

]-

Ruy Teixeira:

Poll averages did not show he was going to win!

Jamaal Bowman:

Hold on a second.

Ruy Teixeira:

You have-

Jamaal Bowman:

There was polling that showed he would win certain areas. That didn’t happen.

Ruy Teixeira:

He did win certain areas.

Jamaal Bowman:

So it all depends on who’s doing the poll, how the questions are framed and asked-

Alicia Garza:

And who’s being polled.

Jamaal Bowman:

Who’s being polled. Like, like t-t-these things matter. So when we talk about a poll, we gotta talk about all the layers. And you know, I’m, I have a doctorate in education leadership. I did a mixed method on, on looking at collaboration with the community school ecosystem and how trauma informed practices inform mission-driven, uh, outcomes, right?

So I… This… There’s this, there’s a research, there’s a peer reviewed research process to research and or polling. So listen, we could say-

John Donvan:

Okay.

Jamaal Bowman:

Numbers all we want-

John Donvan:

I, I hear you. I, I, I-

Jamaal Bowman:

You know what I’m saying?

John Donvan:

I, I do. And I, I somewhat regret opening this can of worms, because it’s taking time away from our top issue, but I wanted-

Jamaal Bowman:

I’m sorry. Please continue.

John Donvan:

No, I wanted to understand where you were on that. But Ruy, you were going on to the point about immigration.

Ruy Teixeira:

Right. Well, I mean (laughs), I hesitate to do this, but I will again refer to the data, which showed that the Democrats are in fact widely disliked for the job they’re doing on immigration. And it was widely supported among all, you know, stripes of voters, the general public, and includes basically, uh, non-white voters as well that we need more, not less border security people who want a secure border, and they don’t feel like we have one and there’s a good reason for it.

John Donvan:

Okay.

Ruy Teixeira:

Because we don’t.

John Donvan:

All right.

Ruy Teixeira:

Oh, okay. So that’s, that’s immigration. But let me make a methodological-

John Donvan:

No, I don’t want to get into the methodological, because, it’s, it’s uh, it’s a sidetrack that I… Yeah. I-

Ruy Teixeira:

No, I mean, not, not about the polling. I just want to point out the following. The debate here is not whether every position the Democrats take on everything is too far to the left. The debate is about whether on some issues they have gone too far to the left and that’s hurting them politically. That is the case that Coleman and I are making. Not that every single thing the Democrats stand for, like for example, preserving social security and Medicare, is too far to the left.

That’s not the issue! The issue is whether they are too far to the left on a cluster of issues that is in fact turning them politically [inaudible

]-

John Donvan:

Where would you put, where would you put trans rights on that list, Ruy?

Ruy Teixeira:

I would say way too far to the left.

John Donvan:

Alicia, is the party too far to the left on trans rights?

Alicia Garza:

(laughs) No. It’s not. It’s, it’s not left enough. And I just, I just want to be clear about this, because it’s not nitpicky. Um, we deal with this all the time. When we start talking about, um… And I’m not trying to get into the methodology, but I do want listeners to understand why you have to ask these types of questions.

I see polls every single day on CNN. In fact, there was a [inaudible

] poll that was, uh, uh, quoted just recently that say 53% of Americans think this. 47% of Americans think this. But then when you ask the question, who are you polling? The actual [inaudible

] poll says, uh, that 53% of the people who were polled were white men who said that the party and the country had moved too far left. Only 17% of those respondents were black.

So you cannot… (laughs) Right? Make these large kind of assumptions and say data says this, polls say this. You do actually need to be specific. Now, when it comes to black voters and black potential voters, I can tell you, uh, that you know, again, where people want the Democratic party to be is actually, uh… (laughs) Um, uh, farther left than where they actually are.

The majority of black voters that we poll regularly in the largest polls of black people in America show that people by and large support trans rights and want their government to do so as well. Even on the question of immigration, uh, there are a, a larger percentage of, uh, black voters and black non-voters, uh, who want, uh, immigration, right? To be fair. And not who say we want to close down the borders and we want to restrict immigration, but there’s actually a lot of nuance in here.

And so, to me, I think we have to keep pushing on this question of who are you talking to, and about what? And bigger than that, we have to ask, uh, and I appreciated the earlier point from my opponent, uh, what does it take to actually win elections, and who do you need to bring into a coalition and around what?

I would argue that my opponents are arguing that you have to instead of favoring, uh, the left wing of the party, you have to favor the moderate wing of the party. And I would argue that that is also false. What you need to do… (laughs) Right? Is to be able to find the things that actually can bring those folks together. Not that, uh, veers more closely to the moderate wing just because. Uh, there are some people who are disgruntled about change in this country. Change is here. (laughs)

John Donvan:

Okay.

Alicia Garza:

The demographics of this country have changed.

John Donvan:

So, so-

Alicia Garza:

Uh, the politics of this country have changed.

John Donvan:

Yeah.

Alicia Garza:

And it’s not to say that, um, in 2023, everybody in America supports Black Lives Matter. They do not. However, people have become more progressively politicized, and that is also shown by data. What I think we will find when we actually dig in is that people feel very much so like both of these parties do not actually reflect their interests, their values, or their needs. And people want to see folks who are going to get stuff done for them. And unfortunately, this conversation which we are having, uh, which is still mostly a punditry conversation, isn’t actually reflective of what a lot of Americans are saying that they want from their government or from a party that they may or may not deeply, uh, resonate with. Not necessarily because of their positions, but because a lot of people don’t participate in the first place.

John Donvan:

All right. I want to go to [inaudible

]-

Jamaal Bowman:

Can I say something about immigration? Because I’ve actually been to the border and to Central America while in Congress.

John Donvan:

Jamaal, can you do that in 30 se- We have some other voices we’d like to bring in, and I don’t want to cut you off on that, but I just want to say, if you could do it in-

Jamaal Bowman:

Just, just real quick.

John Donvan:

Go for it.

Jamaal Bowman:

So we, we do not have open borders. There’s been no policy change since Biden has come in, number one. Number two, when I spoke to CBP, when I went to the border in Laredo, Texas, they told me upwards of 93% of the people they stop are not committing a crime at all. They’re just seeking asylum. Number three, the majority of fentanyl, which is another scare tactic that we continue to hear from Republicans that comes into America, 86% I believe is the number, is coming from American citizens bringing it in. And lastly, when I went to the northern triangle and met with indigenous people in Honduras and Guatemala, they spoke to me about American companies and multinational corporations coming in and destroying their ecosystems, leaving them in poverty with no other recourse but to migrate to our country.

This goes back to United Fruit and Chiquita Banana, all the way to right now. And we’ve funded military and police in those places that led to more destabilization.

John Donvan:

Okay.

Jamaal Bowman:

And disappearing of families.

John Donvan:

All right. I want to bring in, uh, some other voices now. And we have Scott Barry Kaufman, who is a journalist. And Scott, you’re going to pop up on camera and come in live. And um-

Scott Barry Kaufman:

[inaudible

].

John Donvan:

Identify yourself, and then join the conversation as a journalist asking a question, please.

Scott Barry Kaufman:

Yeah, sure.

Jamaal Bowman:

Scott is my guy! Can I say hi to Scott? [inaudible

].

Scott Barry Kaufman:

Yeah, how’s it going?

Jamaal Bowman:

[inaudible

] Scott! You don’t remember me? Do you remember me?

Scott Barry Kaufman:

I do, I do actually remember you. (laughs) I do.

Jamaal Bowman:

I was Principal Bowman then. Yes!

Scott Barry Kaufman:

I do. I, I very much remember.

Jamaal Bowman:

Scott’s first book, Ungifted, is phenomenal, by the way.

Scott Barry Kaufman:

Aww. You gotta-

John Donvan:

Okay.

Jamaal Bowman:

You the man, Scott.

Scott Barry Kaufman:

You’re gonna make me blush. (laughs) Uh, I hope you still like me after my question. (laughs)

Jamaal Bowman:

(laughs)

John Donvan:

So Scott, tell us, tell us who you’re with and [inaudible

].

Scott Barry Kaufman:

Uh, sure. I’m a professor at Columbia University. Um, a psychologist, cognitive scientist. Uh, h-humanistic psychologist. I’m really interested in basic needs and how we… What we all share with each other. Um, I have some questions for, uh, Alicia and uh, uh, Representative Bowman.

John Donvan:

S-Scott, before you get into that-

Scott Barry Kaufman:

Yeah.

John Donvan:

I just, in terms of managing time, I need to know how many questions you have.

Scott Barry Kaufman:

Okay. It… Like, two in one. Two in one.

John Donvan:

(laughs)

Scott Barry Kaufman:

Two. Two.

John Donvan:

I, I see people on this-

Scott Barry Kaufman:

Two questions. Two questions.

John Donvan:

Thing sighing and yet, if we didn’t wrap up in time, you would be sighing about that.

Scott Barry Kaufman:

(laughs) I will wrap this. I’ll make it very concise. I’ll make it very concise.

(

):

John Donvan:

If you can make it one question for each, that would be very, very helpful.

Scott Barry Kaufman:

Okay. Yeah. Absolutely I can do that.

John Donvan:

Thank you.

Scott Barry Kaufman:

Um, okay. Alicia. Uh, what would it look like if we went too far left? Do you have any barometer at all on… And does that concern you at all? Like, are you worried at all that it could ever get too far left? I know you don’t think we are too far left, but I’m just curious if like that even matters to you at all, this question of like are we too far left? Like, is there anything that would be too far left? Like, is there a line where you’d be like, “Okay! Folks, I agree.” (laughs)

John Donvan:

Okay. Great question.

Scott Barry Kaufman:

I’m [inaudible

]. Okay.

Alicia Garza:

(laughs) That’s such an awesome question, and thank you for asking it. Um, yes. I, I… Let me say this. Um, the only reason I would care about that question is for the purposes of understanding whether or not my candidate could win an election based on their policy positions. And yes, I do think that, um, there are positions that, um, can be too far left for the American electorate. Uh, for example, uh, if, uh, somebody was pushing, uh, to completely dismantle capitalism and instead replace it with a, a form of socialism that would run the entire country, uh, I would say that that would be a position that would be too far left for a candidate to win.

Um, I would say another example could be, uh, if, if a candidate said, um, “You know, we are going to open all borders.” Right? “And there will be absolutely no regulation on who migrates and how they migrate and under what circumstances.” If I wanted a candidate to win, I would say that that was too far left.

But the argument that I’m making here is that, um, actually, there are not that many candidates out there… (laughs) That are on the mainstream stage that are actually pushing those positions. Uh, much less, uh, in, in any danger of winning those positions. And my argument here is that you know, this, this notion that the Democratic party is so far left and so it’s in danger of like alienating all these people, I am saying to you unequivocally, uh, as somebody who considers themselves to be a part of the far left, but also as somebody who talks to black people and tries to get us to get energized and activated around issues that we care about, that this is not a thing. This is literally not a thing.

And I, I, I think a know a little something about black voters. And I can tell you that, um, I would not purport to say here in any way shape or form that all black voters are radical progressives. We are not. But I will tell you that on the majority of the things that Congressman Bowman is talking about, the black voters by and large support those positions. And I can back it with data, ’cause I do talk to black people. All the time. Not in the tens or the dozens, but in the tens of thousands.

John Donvan:

Hm. Thank you, A-Alicia. Scott, I’m hoping your question is for Coleman, because we haven’t heard from him in a while.

Scott Barry Kaufman:

Ooh. Actually, my question was for Re- Uh, Bowman. Um-

John Donvan:

I’d like to just hear… Give the other side a chance to participate in the conversation.

Scott Barry Kaufman:

Well, okay.

John Donvan:

Do you have a-

Scott Barry Kaufman:

So-

John Donvan:

Do you have a quick pivot on that?

Scott Barry Kaufman:

Well, yeah. I mean, it… It’s very kind of like the mirror image of that question, you know, f-for Coleman. Um, you know, I’m, I’m more of a bridge builder kind of guy, right? So like, I’m not interested in what divides us, but Coleman, I mean, what, um, what do you think is, uh, what do you think is the optimal uh, line for, for the Democrats? Like, have you thought through like what you think would be like the, the perfect sort of, uh, thing that would really get Democrats the most likely, uh, to actually win elections?

Coleman Hughes:

If I were a Democratic strategist, my first thought would be, well, let’s look at the most successful Democratic, uh, politician in a generation. Barack Obama. And try to understand what package of positions and signals he sent out to go, to have a successful two term presidency as the first black president in America with a middle name Hussein. All of these factors going against him, and yet was still able to, um, be so successful. I would say… I would want to take some indication of what po- Packages of policies and signals did this person embody that was so successful?

And yet, what the trend has been is to basically reject that, uh, entire strategy in favor of, uh, far less popular, far less broadly appealing strategies and this is what you see. Uh, this is why you see the hemorrhaging of, of the black and Latino vote. And, and look. Nobody likes the earliest messengers in a crisis. When the Titanic is sinking, the first guy that tells the captain gets booed out of the room, right?

But the, but this is what’s happening, right? This… The, the Democratic party is at the early stages of a crisis where even though it hasn’t gotten that deep yet, the trend line is clearly pointing in the direction of losing the black and Hispanic vote, and there are people that are just going to want to push this crisis under the rug until it becomes so bad that you can’t ignore. But it’s already happening.

Jamaal Bowman:

Again, I just want to… I… The polling that I see doesn’t show any of that, so I… (laughs) I mean, yes. Yes, it shows that, uh, I believe in 2022, there was a slight nudge of black and Latino voters voting Republican. Slight nudge. But not this beginning of some transformational shift where black and Latino voters are now going to start voting Republican. I do think, again, to your point, and to Alicia’s point earlier, we have an opportunity to really continue to grow an incredible, diverse coalition of voters that support Democrats.

And if we don’t get better at engaging them and messaging them and the like, they will continue to sit home and or may vote Republican. But…

Alicia Garza:

And it’s more likely they sit home and not vote.

Jamaal Bowman:

Donald Trump… Yeah, mo- Usually they, usually they sit home. Donald Trump pushed a big lie then, and incited an insurrection. Black and brown people I speak to don’t want to be a part of that, right? [inaudible

]-

Coleman Hughes:

Then why did he gain numbers? Why did he gain numbers among them from his first election to the second?

Jamaal Bowman:

Again, they’ve been excellent at messaging and ex-excellent at fearmongering. He still lost by-

Coleman Hughes:

Fearmongering is perpetual. It always has been.

Jamaal Bowman:

He still lost to a president who is not left at all. Like… (laughs) Like, so, so this far left thing is like-

John Donvan:

All right.

Jamaal Bowman:

Biden is not left.

John Donvan:

I’m gonna, I’m gonna move on to-

Jamaal Bowman:

The other thing, Scott, to your original question… And I’ll stop talking. I swear I’ll stop talking after this.

John Donvan:

(laughs)

Jamaal Bowman:

I, I reject the binary. Like, I reject the left or right binary in and of itself.

John Donvan:

Hm.

Jamaal Bowman:

Like let’s talk about people versus power, and by power I mean corporations and everything they represent. If we’re gonna choose a binary to focus on. Not left versus right.

John Donvan:

So another… Thanks, Scott, very much for joining us, uh, with your questions, Scott. I’ve got a bunch of other ones for people lined up, but we really appreciate it. This one comes from Zaid Jilani, who’s a reporter for News Nation Digital. Uh, I’m gonna take this, uh… Ruy, we haven’t heard from you in a while. And I don’t think that’s fair, so I’m going to bring this question to you. And you can pass on it if you want to and give it to somebody else.

Uh, are there any issues where the Democratic party as a whole is more conservative than it was two decades ago? Are there issues where you think the party should be more conservative? The second one, I think, you’ve kind of answered. But the first part.

Ruy Teixeira:

Are there any issues in which the Democratic party is more conservative today than it was 15 or 20 years ago? I would say that’s a big zero. I can’t really think of any-

Coleman Hughes:

Maybe foreign policy.

Ruy Teixeira:

Cultural issue-

Coleman Hughes:

Foreign policy?

Ruy Teixeira:

Or maybe some foreign policy. That’s good. What do you think, Coleman? Is that, does that qualify?

Coleman Hughes:

I, I would say to some extent. I mean, when-

Ruy Teixeira:

Hm.

Coleman Hughes:

In the Bush years, Republicans were hawks, and um, Democrats were less eager to intervene and-

Ruy Teixeira:

Yeah.

Coleman Hughes:

I don’t know if that’s totally switched, but to some extent that’s switched.

Ruy Teixeira:

Yeah, okay.

Coleman Hughes:

That’s kind of a separate conversation.

Ruy Teixeira:

That’s a friendly [inaudible

].

John Donvan:

All right. I’m going to take the second-

Ruy Teixeira:

Yeah, no, but on terms of domestic policy and social policy, no.

Coleman Hughes:

Probably no.

)

John Donvan:

Second question in this one does go to social policy. I’ll also bring it to you, Ruy. This is, uh, from another, uh, participant who’s watching the debate unfold right now. Uh-

Ruy Teixeira:

Mm-hmm.

John Donvan:

How can anyone call the Democratic party too far left when it won’t even agree on enacting the kind of universal healthcare that is supported by even conservative politicians in places like Canada, the UK, Australia, and all of Europe?

Ruy Teixeira:

Well that’s a very good question. Let’s try to unpack that. The question of whether the Democratic party is too far left does not lie in the issue or the, the sort of what, what positions they actually hold at any given time in an aspirational sense. I mean, the Democrats do want to provide universal healthcare for people.

The question is how do you develop a coalition, a big enough group that you can dominate Congress enough to actually enact, you know, a vast social program of this nature? That’s really the issue. So when we talk about being too far left, we should not think about it as a Democrats are for universal healthcare, what’s too left about that? We should think about, are they developing the coalition and the support that would able them to have the political power to actually get those kinds of things done? So that’s the sense in which I say they’re too far left. Not that they’re for universal healthcare. That’s great! And they made, they made some progress on it.

The question is, why can’t they get it totally over the goal line? Why can’t they move farther? They can’t move farther ’cause they don’t have a strong enough coalition. They just lost the House. They’re in danger of losing the Senate in 2024. This is a 50/50 nation. If the Democrats want to do cool stuff like that, it’s gotta be more like a 55/45 nation. And they’re not getting close with the kind of politics, uh, that our opponents are recommending.

I mean, for example, our distinguished opponent Alicia says that, you know, too far left? Well maybe if they were for completely open borders and dismantling capitalism, that would be too far left. Well, I’d say there’s a lot of other things that are too far left, you know, that aren’t just those really apocalyptic things. Most Americans are relatively moderate. They are not interested in dismantling… Obviously not interested in dismantling capitalism, but they’re not even interested in a whole vector of left wing things that our distinguished left wing opponents would, would uh-

John Donvan:

Okay.

Ruy Teixeira:

Recommend. And you’ve got to be able to sell it to the people.

John Donvan:

We have time for one last question.

Ruy Teixeira:

People in a big way.

John Donvan:

We have time for one last question, and Jamaal, I want to bring this to you because you, you’ve already made the point that you think that the Republicans are better at messaging, and this question goes to that. Is the Democratic party doing a poor job of distinguishing the Democratic platform, the actual platform, from what the Republicans are characterizing as woke?

Jamaal Bowman:

Uh, so again, I reject. I don’t even know what woke is. So like, I don’t think we should be designing a platform response to the Republican use of the term woke. Or wokeism. Or woke mafia. Or woke supremacy. Or wokesters. I don’t think we should have the debate on their terms. Like, they, by and large, sound foolish at… When they use that term work. Woke.

To your overall, to what I thought you were going to ask is, do we need to get better at messaging? Yes. I think part of the reason why we haven’t been as good at messaging is because we’re constantly playing defense when we, we should be playing offense. What are the things the American people care about? They care about universal healthcare.

How do we go into states and go into parts of the country to engage so called moderate voters in that conversation so they could vote Democrat to give us a supermajority in the House so that we can pass universal healthcare? We have to do better at that messaging overall. But because we’re playing defense, like the question was even framed as us defending in response to woke. I don’t think we need to do that. I think we need to go on offense with how we, how we message across the country.

John Donvan:

I think, I think that was the sense of the question, and, and you, and you hit on that, so thank you for that. So that concludes, uh, the conversation portion of the program. And now we’re going to go to a closing round in which each of you has, uh, one more chance to tell us why you’re arguing yes or why you’re arguing no. And uh, Congressman Bowman, it goes to you first. So one more time, your closing argument on why the Democratic party is not too far left.

Jamaal Bowman:

Again, thank you so much for having us. This is was a-an amazing conversation and I hope to be back at some point. Um, as I said in my opening, uh, the issue is not that the Democrats have gone too far left. Uh, we haven’t gone, uh, left enough. Um, is a point that I want to leave us with. Uh, there’s so many issues that the American people are demanding for us to fight for and figure out how to get done, like universal healthcare. Like housing as a human right. Like fully funding our public schools. Like ending mass incarceration and holding police accountable when they break the law. Like ending child poverty.

So many issues the American people want to see us fighting for. And if we fight harder and do better at engagement and communication without fear, we can get all of these things done because we will get the right people in office at the federal level, but also states, counties, and, and municipalities as well.

So thank you, uh, I hope you all enjoyed this amazing conversation.

John Donvan:

Thank you. And we would actually love to have you back o-on our station, so thank you for, for uh, for making the offer right there.

Coleman, you’re up next. You’re… Again, you’re arguing that the Democratic party is too far left. This is time for your closing statement.

Coleman Hughes:

Look, I, I’d like to note that two of the policies I cited as too far left, namely handing out emergency aid to restaurants based on race, uh, racialized medicine, um, you know, the… Charter schools, opposition to charter schools. I haven’t heard any response from my opponents on, on these kinds of things. These policies anger disadvantaged working class people. They make it harder to build the coalitions to get those more broadly popular left wing ideas like universal healthcare. And like I said, there’s a hole in the Titanic of the Democratic party, and it’s slowly the water is rising and I think, uh, my opponents, with all due respect, are going to be the last people to realize when the water has risen to e-emergency levels and uh, I consider myself to be one of just the early messengers. And in any crisis, no one hates the first person to tell them things are deeply, deeply flawed.

John Donvan:

Thank you, Coleman. And Alicia, your closing argument on why the party is not too far left.

Alicia Garza:

(laughs) Uh, well first and foremost, thank you so much for having us. This was an excellent conversation that could go on and on forever. Uh, I will address my opponent and say racialized medicine is not a thing. So I, I would like to understand what you mean by that, because it’s not a thing.

Uh, and also not a thing is the Democratic party moving too far to the left. (laughs) Uh, again, I want to just continue to emphasize here that, uh, if the question is what does it take to win elections, which then, uh, gets to the, uh, outcomes that my, uh, distinguished opponent talked about in terms of, uh, majorities that can move legislation, uh, then what we have to do is be very, very conscious, right? And um, scientific about what people are actually saying about why they do the things that they do.

And uh, by and large, when you look at polls and understanding who you’re talking to in those polls, uh, uh, most Americans… (laughs) Right? Um, aren’t totally paying attention to what’s going on amongst or in between the parties. What they care about is whether or not they can keep a roof over their head, whether they can keep clothes on their backs, whether their children can attend schools and not get shot up, uh, and you know, at the end of the day, uh, you know, what we need to be actually discussing, um, on our own terms, uh, is what is it going to take to energize those people who have, uh, essentially given up on politics all together because they do not feel that politics is representing them? But also, uh, they understand politics to not be putting food on their table. Uh, and not making sure that, uh, their elderly loved ones can be cared for and their children can be cared for at the same time.

Uh, I do want to also just say, uh, that it is important for us to acknowledge, uh, that if we want to see change happen in this country, both inside and outside of politics, uh, then we have to be a little bit more careful, uh, uh, about, uh, not adopting, uh, the fearmongering that, uh, the now extreme right, uh, uh, has made so popular in this country. Makes us have these conversations, right? About uh, whether or not the Democratic party has moved too far to the left as opposed to, uh, what do we need to do to engage more people in the Democratic process? Period. Uh, and what is the gap between why people participate and why they don’t?

Uh, it is not because the policies of the Democratic party are too far left. Thank you for having me.

John Donvan:

Thank you Alicia. And Ruy, b-by being patient, you get to go last. So you have the, the closing word by telling us in your closing statement one more time why you feel that the Democratic party is too far left.

Ruy Teixeira:

Well, I would, I would submit to those listening to this very interesting debate, and thanks, thanks for having me. I am very enjoyable, and uh, spirited. Um, I would a- I would say that if people listening to this debate were trying to figure out like, you know, is it even possible for the Democrats to go too far to the left, I would say they would conclude according to our opponents there is almost no way. There’s almost no progressive left position that could not be… Could be advocated too strenuously. And anything short of dismantling capitalism is fair game. And it’s a great, a great deal and it will, uh, the, the massive honest workers and peasants in America will support them.

But I don’t think that’s true. I think in Jamaal Bowman’s district, yes. You know, plus 20 D district. You know, he can advocate these policies and he can get elected. That’s great. We don’t live in a plus 20 D society. We live in a 50/50 society at best, right? So if you want to develop the support among the masses of people in this country who are, you know, any kind of left leaning agenda, you have to be very attentive to the kinds of, uh, policies you stand for, the kind of culture you stand for, the kind of physicians you push. This is all very important. Your image is really critical. Everything’s nationalized now in the US.

So I would call your attention to the, you know, some of the trends we’ve been talking about. Why is it the case that as the Democrats have moved to the left, they have shed non-white and working class voters? They’re losing ground among the multi-racial working class. They lost the multi-racial working class by 13 points in 2022 and they are gaining, gaining college educated voters, particularly white college educated voters. This is not consistent with developing a coalition that can actually do the stuff left wing people want to do. It’s a reflection instead of the fact Democrats are moving too far to the left on a number of key issues and they are actually attenuating their ability to reach voters and they’re keeping us stuck in this, you know, appalling equilibrium between the parties where nobody can really achieve any kind of political dominance.

And I think our opponents would be well advised to consider that maybe, just maybe, there are some ways in which the Democratic party has moved too far to the left and they’re bleeding votes because of this and they’re not able to accomplish what they want to because of that.

John Donvan:

Okay. All four of your closing statements open the doors to many more debates that we could have if we only had eternal time, so I’ll have to have you back. But I want to say to all four of you, Alicia Garza, Coleman Hughes, uh, Congressman Jamaal Bowman, and uh, Ruy Teixeira, uh, how much we appreciated the fact that you came on here and to quote the word that was just used, you had a very spirited debate, but it was never rude. It was never disrespectful. And we like being able to prove that we can disagree robustly but in ways that can remain civil. And all four of you proved that, by the way you conducted this debate. So we thank you for that.

Um, I also want to thank, uh, all of you out there for tuning in to this, uh, episode of a recording of Intelligence Squared. Uh, I want to remind you that as a non-profit, our work to combat extreme polarization through civil and respectful debate is generously funded by listeners by you, like you, by the Rosenkranz Foundation, and by friends of Intelligence Squared. Intelligence Squared is also made possible by a generous grant from the Laura and Gary Lauder venture philanthropy fund. Robert Rosenkranz is our chairman, Clea Conner is our CEO. Lia Matthow is our chief content officer. Julia Melfi and Marlette Sandoval are our producers. Gabrielle Iannucelli is our social media and digital platforms coordinator. Andrew Lipson is head of production. David Woodmore is our radio producer. Raven Baker is our events and operations manager. One more time to all four of you, thank you so much for being with us and for the way that you did this.

Alicia Garza:

Thanks for having us.

Ruy Teixeira:

[inaudible

].

Jamaal Bowman:

Thank you. Have a good one.

John Donvan:

Yeah. And I am your host, John Donvan. We will see you next time.